Главная   |   Древние Рода   |   ДНК тесты   |   ДОК генеалогия             VK  |  OK  |  FB

Здравствуйте, гость ( Вход | Регистрация )



 
Ответить в данную темуНачать новую тему
> Introducing Myself, An R1a1 from the western isles
Roy Farnol
сообщение 25.1.2011, 3:35
Сообщение #1


Новичок
*

Группа:  R1a
Сообщений: 7
Регистрация: 24.1.2011
Пользователь №: 3192



I am Roy, born in Sheffield, Yorkshire, England, now dwelling in Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand.

My signature gives my R1a1 credentials, at least up to 37 markers.

I have no particularly close matches as far as Y-DNA is concerned but I do have 204 "cousins" thrown up by autosomal SNPs 5 of which may be close enough to find backup documentary proof.
Not a few of the more distant matches have Russian names.

My most prolific matching in Y-DNA is seeming to point more and more towards Norwegian Vikings in Scotland although my documentable family history is almost exclusively limited to the English county of Yorkshire.

I would like to pose a first question on R1a1 DNA as follows:-

One set of names that represents my best (but not wonderful) matches so far is Baird, Beard, Bard and Orr. They all mismatch with me at the DYSes 460, H4, 576 and CDYb and I wondered whether I could take anything from that to point me towards a closer match?


--------------------
R1 = M173, R1a = SRY 10831.2, R1a1a = M198.
M157- M198+ M56- M64.2- P98- PK5-
Y-Search = Q7KYE FTDNA Kit No. = 174455 "Young Scandinavian"
Перейти в начало страницы
 
+Цитировать сообщение
Igor1961
сообщение 25.1.2011, 8:31
Сообщение #2


Легенда
************

Группа: R1a, Академики
Сообщений: 6962
Регистрация: 24.2.2009
Пользователь №: 1721



Цитата(Roy Farnol @ 25.1.2011, 9:35) *
I am Roy, born in Sheffield, Yorkshire, England, now dwelling in Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand.

My signature gives my R1a1 credentials, at least up to 37 markers.

I have no particularly close matches as far as Y-DNA is concerned but I do have 204 "cousins" thrown up by autosomal SNPs 5 of which may be close enough to find backup documentary proof.
Not a few of the more distant matches have Russian names.

My most prolific matching in Y-DNA is seeming to point more and more towards Norwegian Vikings in Scotland although my documentable family history is almost exclusively limited to the English county of Yorkshire.

I would like to pose a first question on R1a1 DNA as follows:-

One set of names that represents my best (but not wonderful) matches so far is Baird, Beard, Bard and Orr. They all mismatch with me at the DYSes 460, H4, 576 and CDYb and I wondered whether I could take anything from that to point me towards a closer match?

Dear Roy, your lineage belongs to so-called Young Scandinavian branch. Since you have ordered only 37-marker test, your position on the tree of this branch is not entirely certain. Nevertheless, it is clear that you belong to the older "parent" sub-branch, which has few matches with Scottish haplotypes. It is scattered instead throughout Northern Ireland, England, Orkney Islands and Scandinavian countries. As you already mentioned, there are no close matches to you. Seemingly close lineages of Orr and Baird family projects date the common ancestors with you well into the beginning of the Common Era. Probably, your closer realtives were not tested yet.

You have pointed on Sheffield, Yorkshire as your hometown. An arrival of the bearers of this branch to this particular area of England, known as Danelaw, can be traced back to predominantly Danish settlers of 9-11th centuries. It is easy to recognize their traces by numerous placenames with "-by" endings, such a Derby etc. It means "habitation, homestead" in Old Norse and Old Danish. These groups of settlers migrated from Denmark and southern part of Norway in different times by relatively large groups. That's why we cannot see the common ancestor of British members of this branch within the British Isles. He lived in Scandinavia. As you can see from the map, dark-blue pins match the Danelaw area nearly perfectly even after centuries after its disappearance.

It is reasonably to assume that your ancestor belonged to this wave of settlers, rather than to those who founded the Scottish sub-branch (light-blue pins). The common ancestor of the whole Young Scandinavian branch lived 2400+/-300 years before present. There is much evidence that he belonged to the Cimbri tribe, who dwelled in the northern part of Jutland peninsula after being defeated by the Romans in 101 BC.


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a M458>Y2604>CTS11962>L1029>FGC66323>YP1703>YP6189>BY35612
mt-DNA: U3a2a (16343G, 16390A, 16519C, 73G, 150T, 200G, 263G, 315.1C)
Перейти в начало страницы
 
+Цитировать сообщение
Roy Farnol
сообщение 28.1.2011, 13:29
Сообщение #3


Новичок
*

Группа:  R1a
Сообщений: 7
Регистрация: 24.1.2011
Пользователь №: 3192



[quote name='Igor1961' date='25.1.2011, 18:31' post='63651']

I may have figured out how to deal with some of the Russian instructions so I am endeavouring to reply and thank Igor 1961 for his information.

I take his point about the distribution of "Young Scandinavians" and when I wrote of "Scotland" I wrote of modern Scotland which of course includes the western and northern islands. I am very interested in a possible Shetland connection since I have been notiifed of several likely matches from there. Igor never actually mentioned Shetland but I expect it would be included in a longer summary by him. As for Ireland and the Danelaw they are of course not to be ruled out.

I had a very interesting email from a Norwegian in respect of an Irish and Scottish lineage. I quote it here and would like Igor's and anybody else's thoughts on its contents:-

"You and I both belong to the same R1a subgroup as 6% of the Norwegian population, see http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordisk_R1a_Y-DNA-prosjekt based on a research project from 2005 for 12 markers. (Allele values have been converted from the original to present FTDNA-values) .
We are in a Norse Y-DNA R1a -branch (called Young Scandinavian by Anatole Klyosov)

I have checked a number of Y-DNA R1a-results and found that less than half of these 6% have DYS 460=10 like us.
(In another haplogroup, I, DYS 460=10 is an indication of anglo-saxon ancestry.)

My Y-Dna paper trails are mainly Norwegian for the first 9-10 generations but my Y-DNA results are close to Lamont family from Isle of Skye, Orr and Baird(Bard), MacLeod, McNeil, MacAskill. Jamieson form Scotland and Gilchrist from Islay Scotland and Ireland. My YDNA, is Norwegian ancestral to Somerled according to some of the experts.

You and I have DYS459a=9 (ancestral value) and not the Somerled/MacDonald 8 and my (Norwegian) ancestor to Somerled lived about 465 years BC (according to Russian researcher Anatole Klyosov) +/- 320 years. According to him Somerled may have been either DYS 458=15 (like us) or the "official" DYS 458=16. (Somerled had Norse Ancestors)

In my case it may look like my Y-DNA ancestors lived in Norway to be amongst the first Vikings in the Western Isles, Scotland and to Ireland, and at some point returned to Norway having been thrown out of Ireland in 1095.. It is interesting to see I have close/or identical matches to 3 results from the Gilchrist-family, as the Norwegian king Magnus Barefeet was fighting in Ireland from 1098 til he was killed in Ulster 1103 and his (Irish born?) son Gilchrist returned to Norway to claim the throne and became Norwegian king from 1130 to 1136. (He may have stayed some time at the Hebrides or some other Islands , as they were controlled by Norse until the pledge/sale to Scotland in 1266).

In Norway there have been patronyms (like in Iceland) instead of fixed surnames until the middle of 19th century, but fixed surnames were common much earlier for nobility, immigrants and some hundred years earlier for people living in the Cities, Still easy to trace ancestors in Norway as most records and older litterature now is (freely) available at the Internet.

According to a migration map at ISOGG-site some Vikings moved and settled in North-West England, including part of Yorkshire. The Bairds/Beards and the Orr families seem to
fit in.

Some of the Bairds are connected to William the Conqueror, such as his half
brother Le Seigneur de Bardes. My connection back to Florence in Italy and later to Norway seem to be
connected by the "Company of the Bairds" who settled in Florence in Italy:

1328 A Treaty of Peace was concluded at Northampton between King Edward III
and King Robert Bruce, by which it was agreed that King Robert should pay to
King Edward 30,000 merks in consideration of the damage done last year by
his army in England. The last payment of this money, being 10,000 merks fell
due at the Feast of John the Baptist, being the 24th of June 1331. King
Edward then assigns King Robert Bruce's obligation to Bartholomew Barde and
others of that name, called the Company of the Bairds trading to Florence,
and sends them to Scotland to receive the said sum from David Bruce, then
King; and in a letter writ two days after, Edward recommends them to David's
special affection. That Prince likewise employs them in several other
important transactions during the course of his reign, and calls them his
beloved and trusty "Bankiers," the Company of the Bairds. Rymer, tome iv.,
p.463, et passim.

Some of the Beards in italy were in religious conflict with the Vatican in
the 16th century and may have been the family of my ancestor Franciscus
(Florentius Italus) born about 1505-1510 who was brought to Norway as a
child, probably by Danish/Norwegian clergy visiting Italy. He became the
first protestant minister at Nannestad, Norway, and was married (2nd time)
to a lady of noble ancestry."

I found this all very interesting and this is what first directed me towards the Orr and Baird lineage.

The Danelaw still remains a possible origin, even at a late date, and I suppose the Norman invasion too. The only thing I definitely rule out is a transfer from an Oslo football club to Sheffield United!

On the whole I "fancy" Shetland and I do have some autosomal matches from there.

Any errors or omissions are mine and not my correspondent's. I'd be very interested indeed on anybody's thought on the matter.

Thanks, Roy.







--------------------
R1 = M173, R1a = SRY 10831.2, R1a1a = M198.
M157- M198+ M56- M64.2- P98- PK5-
Y-Search = Q7KYE FTDNA Kit No. = 174455 "Young Scandinavian"
Перейти в начало страницы
 
+Цитировать сообщение
Боромир
сообщение 28.1.2011, 18:35
Сообщение #4


Эксперт
*****

Группа: R1a, Магистры
Сообщений: 1469
Регистрация: 2.4.2009
Из: Бостон
Пользователь №: 1923



Hi Roy, I can't help you with search of your roots, but I'd like to share with you some information about participants of this forum and this site organization.

Under the nick Igor1961 is hiding Igor Rozhanskii. He is famous among R1a bearers for creation Rozhanskii maps. You can find these maps by clicking on the link Branches above. I am sure you already did.

The "Russian researcher Anatole Klyosov" whom you mentioned in you last post is a driving scientific force of this forum. His nick here is aklyosov.

We have library of articles though in Russian devoted to the haplogroup R1a. However, the article pertaining to your interest is written in English.


--------------------
FTDNA Kit No. 143121, Russian Empire Project
Ysearch/mitosearch URQ2X


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a-Z280 >CTS1211>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y2910>L458* Восточно-Карпатская (Волго-Карпатская ветвь)
mt-DNA: H* (16085T, 16189C, 16519C, 263G, 315.1C, 522-, 523-)
Перейти в начало страницы
 
+Цитировать сообщение
Roy Farnol
сообщение 28.1.2011, 19:46
Сообщение #5


Новичок
*

Группа:  R1a
Сообщений: 7
Регистрация: 24.1.2011
Пользователь №: 3192



QUOTE (Боромир @ 29.1.2011, 4:35) *
Hi Roy, I can't help you with search of your roots, but I'd like to share with you some information about participants of this forum and this site organization.


Thanks for your forum background information. I have read the "Somerled Article" a couple of times and found it very interesting. I'll print it out and study it.

It's a shame that I didn't take Russian at school or college, but one cannot do everything can one? I can claim that my Russian has improved 1,000% this week - all twenty words.

I'd like to know why you display the same results as me in your signature but show a deeper level of nomenclature - R1a1a* as against my R1a1*? Is there something I don't know - or more accurately - something else I don't know? (Nothing to do with Middle Earth I presume?)

Much obliged, Roy


--------------------
R1 = M173, R1a = SRY 10831.2, R1a1a = M198.
M157- M198+ M56- M64.2- P98- PK5-
Y-Search = Q7KYE FTDNA Kit No. = 174455 "Young Scandinavian"
Перейти в начало страницы
 
+Цитировать сообщение
kosmonomad
сообщение 30.1.2011, 0:14
Сообщение #6


Магистр
******

Группа: R1a, Магистры
Сообщений: 2622
Регистрация: 4.10.2009
Из: Москва
Пользователь №: 2401



Hi, Roy.

It's nice to see you again.
We use the ftdna's up to date draft of the R1a tree and its designations. A SNP is available for your R1a subtree, L448, very new, found in Scott Magoon. It may extend your haplogroup name.


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a>Z283>Z280>CTS1211>YP1019>YP1033+ BY27605+ Central-Eurasian-2, R1a1a1b1a2b
mt-DNA: H
Перейти в начало страницы
 
+Цитировать сообщение
Roy Farnol
сообщение 30.1.2011, 3:10
Сообщение #7


Новичок
*

Группа:  R1a
Сообщений: 7
Регистрация: 24.1.2011
Пользователь №: 3192



QUOTE (kosmonomad @ 30.1.2011, 10:14) *
We use the ftdna's up to date draft of the R1a tree and its designations.


Okay thanks kosmonomad. I presume FTDNA will notify their customers when the change becomes official.

I will take a look at all the new SNPs available and pertinent to "R1a"s.

Au revoir, Roy.


--------------------
R1 = M173, R1a = SRY 10831.2, R1a1a = M198.
M157- M198+ M56- M64.2- P98- PK5-
Y-Search = Q7KYE FTDNA Kit No. = 174455 "Young Scandinavian"
Перейти в начало страницы
 
+Цитировать сообщение
Roy Farnol
сообщение 5.3.2011, 12:25
Сообщение #8


Новичок
*

Группа:  R1a
Сообщений: 7
Регистрация: 24.1.2011
Пользователь №: 3192



QUOTE (Roy Farnol @ 30.1.2011, 13:10) *
QUOTE (kosmonomad @ 30.1.2011, 10:14) *
We use the ftdna's up to date draft of the R1a tree and its designations.


Okay thanks kosmonomad. I presume FTDNA will notify their customers when the change becomes official.

Au revoir, Roy.


Well, as kosmonomad expected, I have been reclassified as R1a1a by FTDNA. So what's new about me now? Can any details be added to my heritage? And are there any particular tests available recommended for a deeper investigation?

Thanks, Roy.


--------------------
R1 = M173, R1a = SRY 10831.2, R1a1a = M198.
M157- M198+ M56- M64.2- P98- PK5-
Y-Search = Q7KYE FTDNA Kit No. = 174455 "Young Scandinavian"
Перейти в начало страницы
 
+Цитировать сообщение
Боромир
сообщение 5.3.2011, 16:27
Сообщение #9


Эксперт
*****

Группа: R1a, Магистры
Сообщений: 1469
Регистрация: 2.4.2009
Из: Бостон
Пользователь №: 1923



Цитата(Roy Farnol @ 5.3.2011, 4:25) *
Well, as kosmonomad expected, I have been reclassified as R1a1a by FTDNA. So what's new about me now? Can any details be added to my heritage?
Nope
Цитата
And are there any particular tests available recommended for a deeper investigation?

Kosmonomad told you already. New SNP for Young Scandinavian branch is L448. It is available from FTDNA now.
Choose "ORDER ADVANCED TESTS" not "ORDER ADVANCED SNP TEST". In new window select SNP and then L448.


--------------------
FTDNA Kit No. 143121, Russian Empire Project
Ysearch/mitosearch URQ2X


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a-Z280 >CTS1211>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y2910>L458* Восточно-Карпатская (Волго-Карпатская ветвь)
mt-DNA: H* (16085T, 16189C, 16519C, 263G, 315.1C, 522-, 523-)
Перейти в начало страницы
 
+Цитировать сообщение
Roy Farnol
сообщение 6.3.2011, 8:08
Сообщение #10


Новичок
*

Группа:  R1a
Сообщений: 7
Регистрация: 24.1.2011
Пользователь №: 3192



QUOTE (Боромир @ 6.3.2011, 2:27) *
QUOTE (Roy Farnol @ 5.3.2011, 4:25) *
Well, as kosmonomad expected, I have been reclassified as R1a1a by FTDNA. So what's new about me now? Can any details be added to my heritage?
Nope
QUOTE
And are there any particular tests available recommended for a deeper investigation?

Kosmonomad told you already. New SNP for Young Scandinavian branch is L448. It is available from FTDNA now.
Choose "ORDER ADVANCED TESTS" not "ORDER ADVANCED SNP TEST". In new window select SNP and then L448.


Thanks Boromir. I'll get that L448 and see what's what.



--------------------
R1 = M173, R1a = SRY 10831.2, R1a1a = M198.
M157- M198+ M56- M64.2- P98- PK5-
Y-Search = Q7KYE FTDNA Kit No. = 174455 "Young Scandinavian"
Перейти в начало страницы
 
+Цитировать сообщение
Боромир
сообщение 7.3.2011, 16:30
Сообщение #11


Эксперт
*****

Группа: R1a, Магистры
Сообщений: 1469
Регистрация: 2.4.2009
Из: Бостон
Пользователь №: 1923



Цитата(Roy Farnol @ 6.3.2011, 0:08) *
Thanks Boromir. I'll get that L448 and see what's what.
Take a look at Tomas Khran's draft tree. Unfortunately, this SNP won't help you to find your roots. Though it is useful for defining your branch.


--------------------
FTDNA Kit No. 143121, Russian Empire Project
Ysearch/mitosearch URQ2X


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a-Z280 >CTS1211>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y2910>L458* Восточно-Карпатская (Волго-Карпатская ветвь)
mt-DNA: H* (16085T, 16189C, 16519C, 263G, 315.1C, 522-, 523-)
Перейти в начало страницы
 
+Цитировать сообщение
Roy Farnol
сообщение 8.3.2011, 1:48
Сообщение #12


Новичок
*

Группа:  R1a
Сообщений: 7
Регистрация: 24.1.2011
Пользователь №: 3192



QUOTE (Боромир @ 8.3.2011, 2:30) *
Take a look at Tomas Khran's draft tree. Unfortunately, this SNP won't help you to find your roots. Though it is useful for defining your branch.


Thanks Boromir.

I had a look at TK's tree. There are a lot of branches there and I wondered what population size each branch might represent?

Let's say that the main group is a people/race/culture and the following are parts of that group:-

Tribe - Clan - Sept - Community - Family

Where do the branches fit in? (I am presuming that even the "main group" will not be so very big compared to modern populations.)

Also, FTDNA recommend I next test for M434, not 448, which I believe is to test for R1a1a1 membership? Do you concur?


--------------------
R1 = M173, R1a = SRY 10831.2, R1a1a = M198.
M157- M198+ M56- M64.2- P98- PK5-
Y-Search = Q7KYE FTDNA Kit No. = 174455 "Young Scandinavian"
Перейти в начало страницы
 
+Цитировать сообщение
kosmonomad
сообщение 8.3.2011, 12:55
Сообщение #13


Магистр
******

Группа: R1a, Магистры
Сообщений: 2622
Регистрация: 4.10.2009
Из: Москва
Пользователь №: 2401



Цитата(Roy Farnol @ 8.3.2011, 1:48) *
Thanks Boromir.

I had a look at TK's tree. There are a lot of branches there and I wondered what population size each branch might represent?

Let's say that the main group is a people/race/culture and the following are parts of that group:-

Tribe - Clan - Sept - Community - Family

Where do the branches fit in? (I am presuming that even the "main group" will not be so very big compared to modern populations.)

Also, FTDNA recommend I next test for M434, not 448, which I believe is to test for R1a1a1 membership? Do you concur?

You will test positive for M417, PAGES00007, L449, L457 which are generic for the greatest majority of R1a's, except for some oldest branches. The M434 is no good for you, they are still advising it despite the fact that much newer data is available. The new L448 covers at least part of the R1a subtree you belong to.
This is the list of subtrees we maintain.
This is your subtree

Currently only some parts of the tree have identifying SNPs, you can find them in the comments to the maps. And R1a is one of the better studied haplogroups, not as much as R1b or E, of cause.


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a>Z283>Z280>CTS1211>YP1019>YP1033+ BY27605+ Central-Eurasian-2, R1a1a1b1a2b
mt-DNA: H
Перейти в начало страницы
 
+Цитировать сообщение

Быстрый ответОтветить в данную темуНачать новую тему
1 чел. читают эту тему (гостей: 1, скрытых пользователей: 0)
Пользователей: 0

 

              Mantlet IPB skin Designed by Fisana, IPBskins.ru
RSS Текстовая версия Сейчас: 15.12.2019, 4:28
 
     




Генеалогический сайт Рунета Сайт Всероссийского Генеалогического Древа Генеалогическая сеть Анализ фамилий Cайт рода R1a Краеведческий сайт Чеченский ДНК проект


© 2004-2015 RODSTVO.RU