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> R1a1a1b2 In Britain, Quest for origins of rare haplogroup in Britain
Guachelin
сообщение 19.4.2014, 17:59
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I am the admin of the Farrar DNA project at FTDNA.

Members of the project that belong to Lineage 1,share one thing in common we are all Z93+ and Z94-.

I am trying to ascertain the origin of our DNA in Britain, It appears to be unique, and the genetic distance of all us in lineage 1, Farrar surname or not, is at Y37 a Max genetic distance of 4, of course at Y67 the distance varies from a GD of 0 to a GD of 7, yet we all have one thing in common Z93+ Z94-.

I've been struggling to ascertain the origin of our 1st British Ancestor. Our Genetic distance indicates that we shared a common ancestor that lived at least at the end of the 11th Century.

One member, who lives in Cumbria, England and who has documented lineage that converges with mine in Halifax Parish, West Riding Yorkshire, in the year 1471 is, at Y111 at a genetic distance of 10 to me., at Y67 he is at a genetic distance of 6 to me.

My Ysearch id is FRXP4

I thought that we might be Hungarian Romani but they are Y94+, I thought the same about a Magyar origin but they are also Y94+ or so I've been told.

I am not Young Scandanavian (new Norse) as besides being a different SNP they are YCAII 19-21 and we are 19-23.

My limited imagination leaves me considering only the following possibilities.

A Iazyge (Sarmatian) auxillary of the Legus Romano Sextus Victrix stationed at York, England and retired to Bremetenacum Veteranorum (Ribchester)

An Alani (Sarmatian) who settled in Normandy duruing the tour of duty of the praetor Aetitius

A Hungarian in the court of Edward and Margaret Aetheling, children of Edward the Exile. These people were born and raised in Hungarian, returned to York in 1056 at invitation of Edward the Confessor and in 1071 fled to Sctoland to escape the Harrying of the North, when William the Conqueror set Wm Peverel and Henry de Ferrers to teach the north and England a lesson when the Saxon Earls Aedwin and Morcar of Mercia reneged on their pledge of fealty.

I am inclined to the latter because a genetic cousin, by name of Douglass, has as his earliest known ancestor a man born in Perth, Scotland in 1730.

Another possibility ventured elsewheres is that the DNA is archaic a remnant of the bronze age, left in Britain, but if that were so, there would not be a cluster of surnames nor such close genetic distances.

Any ideas appreciated.

I do not know if I get notification of responses so my email is farrardnaatyahoodotcom
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Megruli
сообщение 19.4.2014, 18:40
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Цитата(Guachelin @ 19.4.2014, 17:59) *
I am the admin of the Farrar DNA project at FTDNA.

Members of the project that belong to Lineage 1,share one thing in common we are all Z93+ and Z94-.

I am trying to ascertain the origin of our DNA in Britain, It appears to be unique, and the genetic distance of all us in lineage 1, Farrar surname or not, is at Y37 a Max genetic distance of 4, of course at Y67 the distance varies from a GD of 0 to a GD of 7, yet we all have one thing in common Z93+ Z94-.

I've been struggling to ascertain the origin of our 1st British Ancestor. Our Genetic distance indicates that we shared a common ancestor that lived at least at the end of the 11th Century.

One member, who lives in Cumbria, England and who has documented lineage that converges with mine in Halifax Parish, West Riding Yorkshire, in the year 1471 is, at Y111 at a genetic distance of 10 to me., at Y67 he is at a genetic distance of 6 to me.

My Ysearch id is FRXP4

I thought that we might be Hungarian Romani but they are Y94+, I thought the same about a Magyar origin but they are also Y94+ or so I've been told.

I am not Young Scandanavian (new Norse) as besides being a different SNP they are YCAII 19-21 and we are 19-23.

My limited imagination leaves me considering only the following possibilities.

A Iazyge (Sarmatian) auxillary of the Legus Romano Sextus Victrix stationed at York, England and retired to Bremetenacum Veteranorum (Ribchester)

An Alani (Sarmatian) who settled in Normandy duruing the tour of duty of the praetor Aetitius

A Hungarian in the court of Edward and Margaret Aetheling, children of Edward the Exile. These people were born and raised in Hungarian, returned to York in 1056 at invitation of Edward the Confessor and in 1071 fled to Sctoland to escape the Harrying of the North, when William the Conqueror set Wm Peverel and Henry de Ferrers to teach the north and England a lesson when the Saxon Earls Aedwin and Morcar of Mercia reneged on their pledge of fealty.

I am inclined to the latter because a genetic cousin, by name of Douglass, has as his earliest known ancestor a man born in Perth, Scotland in 1730.

Another possibility ventured elsewheres is that the DNA is archaic a remnant of the bronze age, left in Britain, but if that were so, there would not be a cluster of surnames nor such close genetic distances.

Any ideas appreciated.

I do not know if I get notification of responses so my email is farrardnaatyahoodotcom


Welcome, dear Guachelin! Actor Colin James Farrell is also from this haplogroup?

What is the connection with Hungary in Douglas?

Why exclude possibility of bringing this haplogroup is the Vikings?

Write. Your topic is very interesting. Sincerely
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кеме
сообщение 21.4.2014, 8:36
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Цитата(Guachelin @ 19.4.2014, 18:59) *
I am the admin of the Farrar DNA project at FTDNA.

Members of the project that belong to Lineage 1,share one thing in common we are all Z93+ and Z94-.



Farrar- это что? Фамилия или этническая общность?



--------------------
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Igor1961
сообщение 21.4.2014, 12:32
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Цитата(Guachelin @ 19.4.2014, 23:59) *
I am the admin of the Farrar DNA project at FTDNA.
...
I've been struggling to ascertain the origin of our 1st British Ancestor. Our Genetic distance indicates that we shared a common ancestor that lived at least at the end of the 11th Century.


Dear Guachelin, your project looks big enough to estimate its TMRCA with resonable certainty. Calculations of 42 37-marker haplotypes and 24 67-marker haplotypes gave essencially the same date, that is 675±100 years ago. The tree of Farrars' lineage 1 (marked with red in the attached file) is quite uniform, so this TMRCA should be reliable. Are there any documentary data which suggest an ancestor living in the middle of 14th century within one century margin?

Прикрепленный файл  Z93_Parent.pdf ( 14.8 килобайт ) Кол-во скачиваний: 289


Цитата(Guachelin @ 19.4.2014, 23:59) *
...considering only the following possibilities.

A Iazyge (Sarmatian) auxillary of the Legus Romano Sextus Victrix stationed at York, England and retired to Bremetenacum Veteranorum (Ribchester)

An Alani (Sarmatian) who settled in Normandy duruing the tour of duty of the praetor Aetitius

A Hungarian in the court of Edward and Margaret Aetheling, children of Edward the Exile. These people were born and raised in Hungarian, returned to York in 1056 at invitation of Edward the Confessor and in 1071 fled to Sctoland to escape the Harrying of the North, when William the Conqueror set Wm Peverel and Henry de Ferrers to teach the north and England a lesson when the Saxon Earls Aedwin and Morcar of Mercia reneged on their pledge of fealty.

I am inclined to the latter because a genetic cousin, by name of Douglass, has as his earliest known ancestor a man born in Perth, Scotland in 1730.

Another possibility ventured elsewheres is that the DNA is archaic a remnant of the bronze age, left in Britain, but if that were so, there would not be a cluster of surnames nor such close genetic distances.

Any ideas appreciated.

There many speculations about various Sarmathian tribes in Britain, but in fact nobody knows what haplgroups they belonged to and how to recognize their possible descendants. The same is true for any possible remnants of Roman Age in Britain, because the withdrawal of Romans was followed by several massive waves of migrations from and to Continental Europe, accompanied by wars and decline of population. Even if some lineages of Sarmathian origin suvived a series of population bottlenecks, their growth would start only after unification of England under Norman dynasty, when population decline ended. I am not aware of any British family project whose ancestor predates Norman Invasion times. Therefore, it is impossible to distinguish British lineages which descend from Roman and earlier times from those who arrived to the Isles with William The Conquerer.

In this respect, all your propositions merge ito the single one. However, its weak point is an absence of any relatives among other members of Z93* clade. Again, you can see it on the tree, in which your "red" branch is attached very close to the root of the old (about 6000 years) parent branch. BTW, bearers of quite rare Z93* branch were not yet found among ethnic Hungarians.

Up to date, the version of ancient European origin looks quite reasonable, unless more elaborate sampling will find close relatives somewhere in Europe, Eurasian steppes or Near East. One can suggest BigY order for someone from your project, if you don't want to wait for long time.


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a M458>Y2604>CTS11962>L1029>FGC66323>YP1703>YP6189>BY35612
mt-DNA: U3a2a (16343G, 16390A, 16519C, 73G, 150T, 200G, 263G, 315.1C)
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Megruli
сообщение 22.4.2014, 22:16
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Цитата(кеме @ 21.4.2014, 8:36) *
Цитата(Guachelin @ 19.4.2014, 18:59) *
I am the admin of the Farrar DNA project at FTDNA.

Members of the project that belong to Lineage 1,share one thing in common we are all Z93+ and Z94-.



Farrar- это что? Фамилия или этническая общность?


клан думаю. ирландский похоже.
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Guachelin
сообщение 23.4.2014, 23:39
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Thanks for the response:

I know nothing of Actor James Colin Farrell. He does not appear in my project and I have no information that he is Z93+, Z94-. What is the source of your information. Or was it a question?

The appearance of the surname Douglass in the Farrar DNA project at a genetic distance of between 3 and 7, at Y67, all members of Lineage 1 (R1a1a1b2)

His earliest known ancestor was Alexander Douglass born in Perthshire, Scotland 1735, which coincidentally is where the court of Margaret and Edgar Aetheling removed to when William the Conqueror set
his lieutenants and Domesday Commissioners to Harry the North in 1070..

Given that Margaret and Edgar where children of Edward The Exile, invited back to England by Edward the Confessor and arrived in York in 1060, with a Hungarian entourage (of course, given that they were born and raised in Hungary. the members of their court followed them to Perth. Margaret eventually married Malcolm III (of MacBeth) and was canonized as St Margaret of Scotland.

I do not exclude possiblity of them being Vikings, however I consider it highly unlikely. Vikings belong to a different sub-clade on top of which they are Young Scandanavian, young Norse, that is they are YCAII19/21, evidently descended from a man whose DNA mutated out as he migrated up the coast past scotland.

Virtually all Viking descendants are YCAII 19/21. YCA II 19/23 is Slavic, Sarmatian and possibly old Norse.

There is a belief amongst the Farrar/Farrers (whose origin is a biography of Nicholas Farrer of Little Giddiings) that we descend from Henri de Ferrariis (Heny de Ferrers) a lieutenant of William the Conquerors whose father was Guachelin (Gwaklein, Walkeline) of St Hilaire de Ferrares) I use that screen name but long ago disabused myself of that notion.

Although it is possible, Given that the Alani (a Sarmatian tribe) settled in that area of Normandy during the reign of the praetor Aetitius. And Heni de Ferrariis was master of horse for William,and in his Norman center at Hastings.

But so far I cannot validate that conclusion, not until I can get some living male Ferrer descendants in England to join the project, and they must be male lineal descendants, not descended from men who took up the name Ferrer when they inherited via marriage an estate.

Per the chart here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/ we are unique, per a previous chart put up by the admin of that site, which showed our DNA to be Sarmatian. This led to speculation that we might be Iazyge or Alani.

A speculation since abandoned.

Since Z93+ was found in Hungarian Romanchi and Maylasian Indians. I speculated that we might be Hungarian Romanchi in the court of Margaret and Aetheling, but abandoned that possibility when I learned that they were also Z94+, whcih we are not.

Someone suggested that we were a remnant a copper age artifcact, but that is ridiculous. Given the propensity for procreation and the thousands of years, there would be much more than a handful of R1a1a1b2's in the British Isles.
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Guachelin
сообщение 23.4.2014, 23:47
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Цитата(Megruli @ 22.4.2014, 12:16) *
Цитата(кеме @ 21.4.2014, 8:36) *
Цитата(Guachelin @ 19.4.2014, 18:59) *
I am the admin of the Farrar DNA project at FTDNA.

Members of the project that belong to Lineage 1,share one thing in common we are all Z93+ and Z94-.



Farrar- это что? Фамилия или этническая общность?


клан думаю. ирландский похоже.


I apologize but I cannot read Cyrillic and for some reason Google Chrome is not translating
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Guachelin
сообщение 24.4.2014, 0:08
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Цитата(Igor1961 @ 21.4.2014, 2:32) *
Цитата(Guachelin @ 19.4.2014, 23:59) *
I am the admin of the Farrar DNA project at FTDNA.
...
I've been struggling to ascertain the origin of our 1st British Ancestor. Our Genetic distance indicates that we shared a common ancestor that lived at least at the end of the 11th Century.


Dear Guachelin, your project looks big enough to estimate its TMRCA with resonable certainty. Calculations of 42 37-marker haplotypes and 24 67-marker haplotypes gave essencially the same date, that is 675±100 years ago. The tree of Farrars' lineage 1 (marked with red in the attached file) is quite uniform, so this TMRCA should be reliable. Are there any documentary data which suggest an ancestor living in the middle of 14th century within one century margin?

Прикрепленный файл  Z93_Parent.pdf ( 14.8 килобайт ) Кол-во скачиваний: 289


Цитата(Guachelin @ 19.4.2014, 23:59) *
...considering only the following possibilities.

A Iazyge (Sarmatian) auxillary of the Legus Romano Sextus Victrix stationed at York, England and retired to Bremetenacum Veteranorum (Ribchester)

An Alani (Sarmatian) who settled in Normandy duruing the tour of duty of the praetor Aetitius

A Hungarian in the court of Edward and Margaret Aetheling, children of Edward the Exile. These people were born and raised in Hungarian, returned to York in 1056 at invitation of Edward the Confessor and in 1071 fled to Sctoland to escape the Harrying of the North, when William the Conqueror set Wm Peverel and Henry de Ferrers to teach the north and England a lesson when the Saxon Earls Aedwin and Morcar of Mercia reneged on their pledge of fealty.

I am inclined to the latter because a genetic cousin, by name of Douglass, has as his earliest known ancestor a man born in Perth, Scotland in 1730.

Another possibility ventured elsewheres is that the DNA is archaic a remnant of the bronze age, left in Britain, but if that were so, there would not be a cluster of surnames nor such close genetic distances.

Any ideas appreciated.

There many speculations about various Sarmathian tribes in Britain, but in fact nobody knows what haplgroups they belonged to and how to recognize their possible descendants. The same is true for any possible remnants of Roman Age in Britain, because the withdrawal of Romans was followed by several massive waves of migrations from and to Continental Europe, accompanied by wars and decline of population. Even if some lineages of Sarmathian origin suvived a series of population bottlenecks, their growth would start only after unification of England under Norman dynasty, when population decline ended. I am not aware of any British family project whose ancestor predates Norman Invasion times. Therefore, it is impossible to distinguish British lineages which descend from Roman and earlier times from those who arrived to the Isles with William The Conquerer.

In this respect, all your propositions merge ito the single one. However, its weak point is an absence of any relatives among other members of Z93* clade. Again, you can see it on the tree, in which your "red" branch is attached very close to the root of the old (about 6000 years) parent branch. BTW, bearers of quite rare Z93* branch were not yet found among ethnic Hungarians.

Up to date, the version of ancient European origin looks quite reasonable, unless more elaborate sampling will find close relatives somewhere in Europe, Eurasian steppes or Near East. One can suggest BigY order for someone from your project, if you don't want to wait for long time.


First my apologies. While this thread is in English, or at least a portion of it, the php buttons are in Cyrillic and I can't understand them, so I click until something looks like it was posted.

As regards BigY there have been a couple of us who have tested and here are the results.I do not know what to make of them though:

CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10627+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11411+, CTS11575+, CTS11720+, CTS11726+, CTS11734+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1619+, CTS1996+, CTS2907+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3548+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5164+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5508+, CTS5532+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8008+, CTS8243+, CTS8851+, CTS8980+, CTS9596+, CTS9754+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F1050+, F1088+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F1769+, F180+, F1808+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F212+, F2142+, F2155+, F2215+, F2234+, F2402+, F2587+, F2684+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F2901+, F2948+, F295+, F2957+, F2985+, F2993+, F3044+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F3159+, F3185+, F3194+, F3197+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F3337+, F3364+, F3398+, F344+, F3466+, F3551+, F3556+, F356+, F3570+, F359+, F3644+, F3650+, F3692+, F378+, F4+, F4099+, F47+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F886+, F928+, F93+, F947+, F989+, L122+, L132+, L145+, L146+, L15+, L16+, L168+, L350+, L457+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L498+, L566+, L62+, L63+, L721+, L747+, L768+, L779+, L781+, L82+, M139+, M168+, M17+, M198+, M207+, M235+, M294+, M417+, M42+, M45+, M459+, M512+, M526+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, PAGES00007+, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6007+, PF601+, PF6063+, PF6145+, PF6151+, PF6158+, PF6159+, PF6162+, PF6165+, PF6167+, PF6169+, PF6170+, PF6210+, PF6211+, PF6214+, PF6215+, PF6216+, PF6218+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF7530+, PF7540+, PF7542+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, Z93+

Now as regards the other Branches of the Z93+ tree, how many of them are Z94+. Unless I know whether or not they are Z94- or Z94+ that info is not helpful.

On to other subject: Time line documentation. There is documentation that my earliest Farrar ancestor (name was spelled Ferror, some spelled it Fairher, Fareher, Fairer) bought the land upon which he built Ewood Hall in Halifax Parish, West Riding Yorkshire in 1471.

In the subsidy roll for 1379 in Yorkshire (Poll Tax of 1377) in Halifax Parish, Morley Wapentake, Eland (Elland) on the property of Johannes Helistones (John Ellistone) lived a Ferror and wife (fferror&uxor).

My 11th great grandfather, left a will proved in Halifax Parish, West Riding Yorkshire in 1547, a copy of which can be found on the Internet will of Henry Ferror.

As you know spelling of common words much less names was not standardized at that time, and even later when they were standardized there were regional differences in phonetic interpretations (Hence Farrar, Ferrar, Farrer, in some instance Farrow, Varrow, and so on could indicate a common ancestry, however not all Farrars are R1a1a1b2, whether NPE's or simply modern spelling adaptations is unknown, well in most cases, in some it is known such as the I2 Farrars whose descendant was John Farrow of Hingham, Norfolk.

And during the reign of Henry VIII there were some Ferrors, Ferrours and even a Dr Farrar in Norfolk, but I am not convinced that they are cousins.

By the way the TMRCA of 675-1000 puts us with the possibility of a member of the court of Margaret and Edgar Aetheling.

There are also some non Farrar cousins, such as Evans, English and Farrows who are not, I think, NPE"s, but obtained their surnames at the time the rest of the Brits obtained theirs, that is during the Poll Tax of 1377

By the way you have as icon the White Rose of York, are you the poster known as Yorkie on Eupedia?
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Michał
сообщение 25.4.2014, 16:13
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Цитата(Guachelin @ 23.4.2014, 23:08) *
As regards BigY there have been a couple of us who have tested and here are the results.I do not know what to make of them though:

I would recommend that those Big Y testees from your cluster (named 9.A1 in our project) join the R1a1a and Subclades project at FTDNA, so we will help them analyse their results. Having two or more 9.A1 members tested with Big Y should allow us to identify a bunch of new SNPs that are specific for your cluster (a potential subclade of Z93) only. We are also awaiting the Big Y result for another member of Z93* (unclustered, kit 312482 from Russia), so it will be possible to determine whether you all belong to a common subclade (a single sister clade of Z94) or not.

Цитата(Guachelin @ 23.4.2014, 23:08) *
Now as regards the other Branches of the Z93+ tree, how many of them are Z94+. Unless I know whether or not they are Z94- or Z94+ that info is not helpful.

In our project, we have seven well-defined subclusters (or sublineages) in section 9.A (i.e. Z93+ Z94-, categories 9.A1-9.A7) plus nine Z93* members (possibly not related to each other) in the unclustered section 9.A*. If only some of them were ready to order Big Y, the situation in the Z93* section should clear up a bit.

Best,
Michał
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кеме
сообщение 26.4.2014, 6:41
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Цитата(Guachelin @ 24.4.2014, 0:47) *
Цитата(Megruli @ 22.4.2014, 12:16) *
Цитата(кеме @ 21.4.2014, 8:36) *
Цитата(Guachelin @ 19.4.2014, 18:59) *
I am the admin of the Farrar DNA project at FTDNA.

Members of the project that belong to Lineage 1,share one thing in common we are all Z93+ and Z94-.



Farrar- это что? Фамилия или этническая общность?


клан думаю. ирландский похоже.


I apologize but I cannot read Cyrillic and for some reason Google Chrome is not translating


Farrar-what's this? Surname or ethnic group? And if possible, a brief history of it.


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a.Z2123.CTS1806+

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Guachelin
сообщение 27.1.2015, 23:41
Сообщение #11


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7uxor
Цитата(кеме @ 25.4.2014, 20:41) *
Цитата(Guachelin @ 24.4.2014, 0:47) *
Цитата(Megruli @ 22.4.2014, 12:16) *
Цитата(кеме @ 21.4.2014, 8:36) *
Цитата(Guachelin @ 19.4.2014, 18:59) *
I am the admin of the Farrar DNA project at FTDNA.

Members of the project that belong to Lineage 1,share one thing in common we are all Z93+ and Z94-.



Farrar- это что? Фамилия или этническая общность?


клан думаю. ирландский похоже.


I apologize but I cannot read Cyrillic and for some reason Google Chrome is not translating


Farrar-what's this? Surname or ethnic group? And if possible, a brief history of it.


Apologies for long absence.

Farrar is a surname, it was spelled phonetically until the 19th Century, variations I have found are Ferror, Fairher, Farher, Ferrar, Farrer, Farrar, Fairer and Farrow.

There were no surnames as such until the Poll Tax of 1377, and names were spelled, generally by literate authorities, phonetically. As were words (in Steward Scotland for instance quhat is how they spelled what)


Not all Farrows are Farrars however, and not all Farrars are related. I know of a couple of Farrars whose ancestor was born in Norfolk County, England in early17th century, as a Farrow. There were Farrows in Norfolk County during the reign of Henry VIII, but so far, the Farrars of my lineage seem to have appeared in West Yorkshire (modern West Riding Yorkshire), in particular Halifax Parish, in the vicinity of Elland, Mytholmroyd, Midgley.

The earliest Yorkshire resident of the name appears in the subsidy rolls of 1379 (Poll Tax of 1377) as fferror&uxor that is Ferror and wife, they were living on the land or estate or household of Johannes Helistones (John Ellistone) in Elland, Morley Wapentake, Halifax Parish, West Yorkshire..

My proven earliest ancestor was a Henry Ferror who, somehow as a commoner, managed to acquire sufficient wealth to purchase land and build a manoral home called Ewood that was located at Mytholmroyd, only a few minutes walk from Elland., in the year 1471 (reign of Henry VI, Edward IV).
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Амиго
сообщение 28.1.2015, 2:55
Сообщение #12


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Цитата(Guachelin @ 27.1.2015, 23:41) *
Apologies for long absence.

Farrar is a surname, it was spelled phonetically until the 19th Century, variations I have found are Ferror, Fairher, Farher, Ferrar, Farrer, Farrar, Fairer and Farrow.

There were no surnames as such until the Poll Tax of 1377, and names were spelled, generally by literate authorities, phonetically. As were words (in Steward Scotland for instance quhat is how they spelled what)


Not all Farrows are Farrars however, and not all Farrars are related. I know of a couple of Farrars whose ancestor was born in Norfolk County, England in early17th century, as a Farrow. There were Farrows in Norfolk County during the reign of Henry VIII, but so far, the Farrars of my lineage seem to have appeared in West Yorkshire (modern West Riding Yorkshire), in particular Halifax Parish, in the vicinity of Elland, Mytholmroyd, Midgley.

The earliest Yorkshire resident of the name appears in the subsidy rolls of 1379 (Poll Tax of 1377) as fferror&uxor that is Ferror and wife, they were living on the land or estate or household of Johannes Helistones (John Ellistone) in Elland, Morley Wapentake, Halifax Parish, West Yorkshire..

My proven earliest ancestor was a Henry Ferror who, somehow as a commoner, managed to acquire sufficient wealth to purchase land and build a manoral home called Ewood that was located at Mytholmroyd, only a few minutes walk from Elland., in the year 1471 (reign of Henry VI, Edward IV).


Probably you are the descendants of Sarmatians of Arthur king.


--------------------
Amigo

База данных У-ДНК Soraman http://suyun.info/index.php?LANG=ENG&p=b

Если что буду общаться на http://nations.unoforum.pro/

Наш сайт по этногеномике suyun.info

ЭИ Проект ''Suyun'' на сайте Томаса Кранна https://www.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=70

Если вы новичок и не знаете какая у вас ветка, и что вам дальше заказывать, то см. тут.

Matches * Матчи http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bashqo...ection=yresults
Nations * Народы http://www.familytreedna.com/public/suyun/...ection=yresults
Clans * Кланы и фамилии http://www.familytreedna.com/public/people...ection=yresults

The descendants of the ancient tribes * Потомки древних племён http://www.familytreedna.com/public/TuranS...ection=yresults

Среди цветов вишня, среди людей самураи...

--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a.Z2123. SUR250+, SUR22+
mt-DNA: H
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Боромир
сообщение 28.1.2015, 14:50
Сообщение #13


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Guachelin,
YF02655 on YFull tree. Is it you or GFE8B/92134 Mason?


--------------------
FTDNA Kit No. 143121, Russian Empire Project
Ysearch/mitosearch URQ2X


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a-Z280 >CTS1211>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y2910>L458* Восточно-Карпатская (Волго-Карпатская ветвь)
mt-DNA: H* (16085T, 16189C, 16519C, 263G, 315.1C, 522-, 523-)
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Амиго
сообщение 28.1.2015, 17:01
Сообщение #14


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Цитата(Guachelin @ 28.1.2015, 0:41) *
Apologies for long absence.

Farrar is a surname, it was spelled phonetically until the 19th Century, variations I have found are Ferror, Fairher, Farher, Ferrar, Farrer, Farrar, Fairer and Farrow.




If you want - please join our project https://www.familytreedna.com/public/suyun/...ection=yresults . I study - yours clan Farrar. Best regards.


--------------------
Amigo

База данных У-ДНК Soraman http://suyun.info/index.php?LANG=ENG&p=b

Если что буду общаться на http://nations.unoforum.pro/

Наш сайт по этногеномике suyun.info

ЭИ Проект ''Suyun'' на сайте Томаса Кранна https://www.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=70

Если вы новичок и не знаете какая у вас ветка, и что вам дальше заказывать, то см. тут.

Matches * Матчи http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bashqo...ection=yresults
Nations * Народы http://www.familytreedna.com/public/suyun/...ection=yresults
Clans * Кланы и фамилии http://www.familytreedna.com/public/people...ection=yresults

The descendants of the ancient tribes * Потомки древних племён http://www.familytreedna.com/public/TuranS...ection=yresults

Среди цветов вишня, среди людей самураи...

--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a.Z2123. SUR250+, SUR22+
mt-DNA: H
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Igor1961
сообщение 28.1.2015, 19:59
Сообщение #15


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Цитата(Амиго @ 28.1.2015, 8:55) *
Probably you are the descendants of Sarmatians of Arthur king.

That Sarmathian guis are a kind of black cat from the Confucius quotation “The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.”

To be more realistic, let's calculate when an ancestor of Farrars-Z93 lived. At present, 46 members of Farrar DNA project descend from a man, who live 650±100 years ago, just of the first written mentioning of this surname&


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a M458>Y2604>CTS11962>L1029>FGC66323>YP1703>YP6189>BY35612
mt-DNA: U3a2a (16343G, 16390A, 16519C, 73G, 150T, 200G, 263G, 315.1C)
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Амиго
сообщение 29.1.2015, 4:48
Сообщение #16


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Цитата(Igor1961 @ 28.1.2015, 19:59) *
That Sarmathian guis are a kind of black cat from the Confucius quotation “The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.”

To be more realistic, let's calculate when an ancestor of Farrars-Z93 lived. At present, 46 members of Farrar DNA project descend from a man, who live 650±100 years ago, just of the first written mentioning of this surname&


That is, Farrar passed Bottleneck , Igor Lyvovich?


--------------------
Amigo

База данных У-ДНК Soraman http://suyun.info/index.php?LANG=ENG&p=b

Если что буду общаться на http://nations.unoforum.pro/

Наш сайт по этногеномике suyun.info

ЭИ Проект ''Suyun'' на сайте Томаса Кранна https://www.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=70

Если вы новичок и не знаете какая у вас ветка, и что вам дальше заказывать, то см. тут.

Matches * Матчи http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bashqo...ection=yresults
Nations * Народы http://www.familytreedna.com/public/suyun/...ection=yresults
Clans * Кланы и фамилии http://www.familytreedna.com/public/people...ection=yresults

The descendants of the ancient tribes * Потомки древних племён http://www.familytreedna.com/public/TuranS...ection=yresults

Среди цветов вишня, среди людей самураи...

--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a.Z2123. SUR250+, SUR22+
mt-DNA: H
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Guachelin
сообщение 14.2.2015, 22:55
Сообщение #17


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Цитата(Боромир @ 28.1.2015, 3:50) *
Guachelin,
YF02655 on YFull tree. Is it you or GFE8B/92134 Mason?


GFE8B Mason joined my project and I am talking with him currently YF02655 is unknown. I surmise that Yfull is Big Y. I have not test Big y as I do not see what I can gain from spending $575, as I already know where I lie on the R1a phylotree, Terminal Z93+, Z94- and intermediate SNP's will convey no useful information, nor help in my quest for ancestral origin.

Regards
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Guachelin
сообщение 14.2.2015, 22:56
Сообщение #18


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Цитата(Амиго @ 28.1.2015, 6:01) *
Цитата(Guachelin @ 28.1.2015, 0:41) *
Apologies for long absence.

Farrar is a surname, it was spelled phonetically until the 19th Century, variations I have found are Ferror, Fairher, Farher, Ferrar, Farrer, Farrar, Fairer and Farrow.




If you want - please join our project https://www.familytreedna.com/public/suyun/...ection=yresults . I study - yours clan Farrar. Best regards.


I searched for your project at FTDNA so I could join, but couldn't find under Geographical or surnames.

Please send me an invite I am Kit 147177, Ysearch FRXP4.
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Guachelin
сообщение 14.2.2015, 23:50
Сообщение #19


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Цитата(Igor1961 @ 28.1.2015, 8:59) *
Цитата(Амиго @ 28.1.2015, 8:55) *
Probably you are the descendants of Sarmatians of Arthur king.

That Sarmathian guis are a kind of black cat from the Confucius quotation “The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.”

To be more realistic, let's calculate when an ancestor of Farrars-Z93 lived. At present, 46 members of Farrar DNA project descend from a man, who live 650±100 years ago, just of the first written mentioning of this surname&


Hi Igor, or is that Yorkie?

Posting buttons are in Cyrrilic.I posted a response that got lost because I can't read Cyrrilic.
So I try again.

First appearance of the name is in Elland, Halifax Parish, Yorks. in 1379. he was a tenant in the household of Johannes de Helistones. Elland is only a short walk to Mytholmroyd where Ewood (Ewewood, Eawood) Hall was built in 1471 by Henry Ferror. The family were important woolen merchants, marrying into the likes of the Lacy's, a wealthy and important family of Norman origins.

By the 17th Century the Farrars owned manoral halls and hunting lodges around England (e.g. Westwood in Surrey, Great Amwell in Herford) leased land to Abraham Shaw for his coal mining operation, besides owning textile mills in Berkshire and Yorkshire.

Quite an accomplishment for a family who was a tenant on someones land during the stratified 14th century, and even during the reign of Henry VI/Edward IV when Ewood hall was built.

Of social mobility there was little, there were even sumptuary laws prohibiting commoners to attire themselves as though they were the upper class.

Yet this peasant family, who appears whole cloth out of nowhere in Yorkshire in 1379, shows up as a wealthy and influential family in West Rydeing Yorkshire in the 15th and 15th century.

I considered the fact that they might be Romanchi who had left the tribe and gone "straight" but though Z93 has been found in Hungarian Roma, they are also Z94 and we are Z94 negative. I considered Ashkenazi, Levite, but for the same reason (Z94+, we are negative) discount that.

I considered Sephardim, but they belong to different haplogroups (but the name is found amongst Sephardim, as in the publisher, Farrar, Strauss, Giroux ), and anyway Edward I expelled them from England, and they weren't living in York at the time, but were clustered in and around London, the commercial hub of England.

It wasn't until William of Orange that the Jews were able to return to England, and this time there was an admixture of the sons of Ashkenaz and the Peoples of the Book (Ashkenazim and Sephardim).

I considered that the patriarch might have been a hanger on in the court of Edgar and Margaret Aetheling, children of Edward the Exile that returned in 1056 to flee to Scotland with the Harrying of the North (of which William Peverel and Henry de Ferrers) were in charge. As you know Margaret was canonized and married Malcolm of MacBeth fame. But I've been told Z93 did not appear in Hungary at that time, though I find it hard to believe.

That someone in the court of Margaret and Edgar was the Z93 patriarch of the line makes sense, not being hereditary serfs they would have had social mobility that the serfs lacked in that stratified era.

Intercourse (social or sexual) was severely prohibited (save for the privileges of the lord of the manor) in that era, as much if not more than interracial intercourse (exchange) was illegal and taboo in the United States, especially the southern states.

Some would be experts like houseofnames.com claim that Farrow is a hypercorrected version of Farrar and then lump in other names that have an F and two R's, Not to mention a V and two R's as versions of the same.
They are not.

There is a Glen strathfarrar in Scotland, farrar from the Roman varrar, Roman varrar from the Pictish Var, wind or to wind, ergo winding river (Strathfarrar).

These same sources claim that the name is derived from the Latin Ferro for iron, in some cases,like Norfolk, yes.

Norfolk was famous since Roman times for it's iron works, and the name Farrow, Farrar were found there in documents during the time of Henry VIII, however some Norfolk Farrars have joined the Farrar DNA project and they belong to hg I1, there is an R1b1a2 whose 1710 ancestor migrated from Rigsby, Lancashire.

To my knowledge there was no iron producing Industry in west Rydeings Yorkshire. and I doubt seriously that in a space of 92 years a family of blacksmiths, would suddenly rise up and become wealthy woolen merchants, in an era in which there was virtually no social mobility, that occupations were traditional, that social (and sexual) intercourse between classes was taboo (seriously taboo, even sumptuary laws, with the death penalty for peasants who dare to dress like nobility.

In colonial Virginia, marriage between an indentured servant or lower class and the landed gentry was unthinkable, taboo, prohibited. Marriage between black and white slaves/indentured servants was acceptable.
Until the late 17th Century when antimiscegenation laws were introduced.

Such was the case between social classes in England.. class lines were barriers not to be crossed. The nobility went into an uproar and tried to overthrow Henry VII (well plotted against him and his son) because both Henry's did not trust the "nobility" and used educated commoners, elevating them to chamberlains, privvy council, economic advisors and spiritual advisors.

Anyway we have a man who appears out of nowhere around 1379, and apparently sires a line of wealthy merchants. One of whom (a distant cousin) becomes president of the Virginia Company, (my 10th ggrandfather was a stockholder). The company which financed the Jamestown Settlement as a potential moneymaking proposition, leading to the present US of A.


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Амиго
сообщение 15.2.2015, 1:32
Сообщение #20


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Цитата(Guachelin @ 14.2.2015, 23:56) *
I searched for your project at FTDNA so I could join, but couldn't find under Geographical or surnames.

Please send me an invite I am Kit 147177, Ysearch FRXP4.


Project Search-->
Y-DNA SURNAME PROJECTS-->
S-->
Soraman

https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Saura


--------------------
Amigo

База данных У-ДНК Soraman http://suyun.info/index.php?LANG=ENG&p=b

Если что буду общаться на http://nations.unoforum.pro/

Наш сайт по этногеномике suyun.info

ЭИ Проект ''Suyun'' на сайте Томаса Кранна https://www.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=70

Если вы новичок и не знаете какая у вас ветка, и что вам дальше заказывать, то см. тут.

Matches * Матчи http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bashqo...ection=yresults
Nations * Народы http://www.familytreedna.com/public/suyun/...ection=yresults
Clans * Кланы и фамилии http://www.familytreedna.com/public/people...ection=yresults

The descendants of the ancient tribes * Потомки древних племён http://www.familytreedna.com/public/TuranS...ection=yresults

Среди цветов вишня, среди людей самураи...

--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a.Z2123. SUR250+, SUR22+
mt-DNA: H
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