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FredericV
сообщение 24.6.2011, 8:30
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Hi I am Frederic Van de Water and since taking my tests through FTDNA I have found out my Y Haplogroup is R1a1a and I was just wondering if someone could help me figure out where my ancestors likely originated from and how they ended up in the Netherlands specifically Rotterdam. My Ysearch is listed on my profile and I am listed on the Map on this site for the Old European Branch. Any help or ideas of my family origins would be appreciated.

I have also tested some SNPs and I have gotten the following results:
M198+ M17+ L449+ PS7- M417-
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Igor1961
сообщение 24.6.2011, 11:43
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Цитата(FredericV @ 24.6.2011, 14:30) *
Hi I am Frederic Van de Water and since taking my tests through FTDNA I have found out my Y Haplogroup is R1a1a and I was just wondering if someone could help me figure out where my ancestors likely originated from and how they ended up in the Netherlands specifically Rotterdam. My Ysearch is listed on my profile and I am listed on the Map on this site for the Old European Branch. Any help or ideas of my family origins would be appreciated.

I have also tested some SNPs and I have gotten the following results:
M198+ M17+ L449+ PS7- M417-

Dear Frederic, welcome to out forum. Your Old European branch of R1a1 is very interesting, but rather misterious one. This is the only definitely attested lineage of the huge haplogroup R1a1a-M17 with confirmed early split from the rest of the haplogroup. The estmated time of this split is 6800+/-800 years before present, that predates the common ancestor of the dominant Western European subclade R1ba2a1 by nearly 20 centuries.

However, the Old European branch itself is much younger, 2600+/-300 ybp, which is a typical fugure for many of Eastern European branches of R1a1. This common age might attest re-settlement of Central and Eastern Europe by peoples who survived severe population bottlenecks of about 4000 years ago. The origin of these bottlenecks is still obscure, but it involved almost all of the present genealogivcal lineages of Europe, dominating to northern side of Alps. Probaly, your ancestors were among few survivors, while other relatives perished. This is why we see a gap of 4000 years between two events. Where an ancestor lived and what was his ethnicity, one can only speculate.

For instance, he could belong to some proto-Germanic tribe, judging from present location of this branch's bearers. Otherwise, one can suppose an Asian origin because of some similarities between the base hapltype of the bransh and increadibly short haplotypes, found in Near East and Central Asia. We don't know. I hope this mystery will be solved in time.


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a M458>Y2604>CTS11962>L1029>FGC66323>YP1703>YP6189>BY35612
mt-DNA: U3a2a (16343G, 16390A, 16519C, 73G, 150T, 200G, 263G, 315.1C)
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FredericV
сообщение 24.6.2011, 12:07
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Цитата(Igor1961 @ 24.6.2011, 2:43) *
Цитата(FredericV @ 24.6.2011, 14:30) *
Hi I am Frederic Van de Water and since taking my tests through FTDNA I have found out my Y Haplogroup is R1a1a and I was just wondering if someone could help me figure out where my ancestors likely originated from and how they ended up in the Netherlands specifically Rotterdam. My Ysearch is listed on my profile and I am listed on the Map on this site for the Old European Branch. Any help or ideas of my family origins would be appreciated.

I have also tested some SNPs and I have gotten the following results:
M198+ M17+ L449+ PS7- M417-

Dear Frederic, welcome to out forum. Your Old European branch of R1a1 is very interesting, but rather misterious one. This is the only definitely attested lineage of the huge haplogroup R1a1a-M17 with confirmed early split from the rest of the haplogroup. The estmated time of this split is 6800+/-800 years before present, that predates the common ancestor of the dominant Western European subclade R1ba2a1 by nearly 20 centuries.

However, the Old European branch itself is much younger, 2600+/-300 ybp, which is a typical fugure for many of Eastern European branches of R1a1. This common age might attest re-settlement of Central and Eastern Europe by peoples who survived severe population bottlenecks of about 4000 years ago. The origin of these bottlenecks is still obscure, but it involved almost all of the present genealogivcal lineages of Europe, dominating to northern side of Alps. Probaly, your ancestors were one of fiew survivors, while other relatives perished.

Thanks for the information Igor. I guess I am just going to have to accept it is obscure unless some kind of archeological information is discovered or more people test to be able to better define the branch.
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aklyosov
сообщение 24.6.2011, 16:43
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Цитата(Igor1961 @ 24.6.2011, 3:43) *
Your Old European branch of R1a1 is very interesting, but rather misterious one. ... The estmated time of this split is 6800+/-800 years before present...However, the Old European branch itself is much younger, 2600+/-300 ybp


Here are some considerations which can shed some light on the origin of the "Old European Branch". If we employ the slowest (to mutations) 22 marker haplotypes, Frederic's haplotype is as follows:

12 12 13 -- 10 11 -- 11 -- 11 8 17 17 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 11 12

In fact, it is exactly the same as the base "Old European" branch haplotype. No wonder, since the 22 markers are VERY stable, and one mutation occurs - on average - once in 4250 years.

If we take a look at the R1a1 base haplotype of the Russian Plain (of a common ancestor at ~ 5000 years before present), it is

12 12 11 -- 11 11 -- 11 -- 11 8 17 17 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 11 12

As one can see, there are only three mutations betwen them, which translates in 13,400 year distance between the two base haplotypes. It means that a common ancestor of the Russian Plain R1a1 haplotypes and the Old European haplotypes lived (13400+5000+2600)/2 = 10,500 years ago.

This is an expected "age" of R1a1 haplotypes in Europe.

Now, if we consider the base European R1b1a2 haplotype (M269), it is

12 12 13 -- 11 11 -- 12 -- 11 9 15 16 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 11 12

It is of 7 mutations apart with the Russian Plain R1a1 base haplotype (34,600 years between their common ancestors), and 6 mutations apart with the Old European common ancestors (28,900 years between their common ancestors).

What does it tell us?

1) A common ancestor of R1a1 in Europe lived ~ 10,500 years before present (see above). The OE and RP are branches split off that ancient R1a1 lineage in Europe, with currently identified common ancestors 2600 and 5000 years, respectively.

2) A "common ancestor" of Russian Plain R1a1 and European R1b1a2 lived (34,600+5,000+7,000)/2 = 23,300 years before present. This is a "phantom" common ancestor, since the older lineages of R1b and R1a1 were not taken into consideration. However, it shows approximately "an order of magnitude" for "age" their common ancestor.

3) A "common ancestor" of the Old European R1a1 and European R1b1a2 lived (28,900+2,600+7,000)/2 = 19,250 years before present. Again, this is a "phantom" common ancestor, since the older lineages of R1b and R1a1 were not taken into consideration. However, it shows approximately "an order of magnitude" for "age" their common ancestor.

4) In instead of 2,600 in the above we introduce 10,500 (see above), we get (28,900+10,500+7,000)/2 = 23,200 years before present, that is practically exactly the same as that in (1). Again, this is just a rough estimate, however, it gives an idea how the OE and RP R1a1 haplotypes are positioned in Europe (or Eurasia) along with R1b1a2 haplotypes in Europe/Eurasia.

Comments?


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a-Z283
mt-DNA: H

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Igor1961
сообщение 24.6.2011, 18:37
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These dates of splits follow the general topology of the tree of the whole haplogroup R, but it should be taken into consideration rather wide error range for the "super-slow" 22-marker panel. This is because of higher contribution of stochastic factor compared with more "smooth" extended haplotypes. As a consequence, a pairwise estimations is highly desirable to perform using as big datasets of base haplotypes as possible. It would allow us to average resulting values.

Some time ago I have made this work using a set of 65 "reference" lineages, which originate from respective single common ancestors. It was possible to average coalescence times for the entire haplogroup R by employing several distinct subclades. Refined times appeared to be actually the same as deduced in the above message within error margins.

It means that R1b-like features of Frederic's haplotype (DYS392=13 et al.) are somewhat superficial. It is much closer to Eastern European haplotypes R1a1, rather than to Western European R1b1a2. Huge R1a1a1 (M417+) and tiny R1a1a (M417-) are the only known (up to date) remnants of some group of peoples who lived between 7 an 10 thousand years ago. Where they lived, it is still a mystery, but there are indirect indications that they would be the first speakers of Indo-European languages.


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a M458>Y2604>CTS11962>L1029>FGC66323>YP1703>YP6189>BY35612
mt-DNA: U3a2a (16343G, 16390A, 16519C, 73G, 150T, 200G, 263G, 315.1C)
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aklyosov
сообщение 24.6.2011, 19:27
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Цитата(Igor1961 @ 24.6.2011, 10:37) *
These dates of splits follow the general topology of the tree of the whole haplogroup R, but it should be taken into consideration rather wide error range for the "super-slow" 22-marker panel.


Generally true, however, it mirrors common lamenting that DNA genealogy cannot be trusted because of "wide error margin".

There is a simple antidote and a way to overturn (or to confirm) this lamenting, namely - to show how "wide" is the "error range" (instead of just to CLAIM it) on specific examples, as many as possible.

I am finishing now a study on ALL haplogroups of the haplotype tree, in 67, 49 and 22 marker haplotypes. Very often the 22 marker haplotypes give practically the same result as those obtained with 67 and 49 marker haplotypes.

I would suggest a rule of thumb" when there is only one mutation in 22 marker haplotypes, there is a wide confidence range, and 67 or 49 marker haplotypes are preferred ones. This is typically no more than 4-5 thousand years to a common ancestor. This range is not for 22 marker haplotypes. When there is two mutations in 22 marker haplotypes (around 9,000 years to a common ancestor), 22 marker haplotypes become to be matter of choice. With 7 mutations, as it was considederd above, 22 marker haplotypes are definitely matter of choice. 67 marker haplotypes would be a mistake to employ.


Цитата(Igor1961 @ 24.6.2011, 10:37) *
It means that R1b-like features of Frederic's haplotype (DYS392=13 et al.) are somewhat superficial.


It is not "superficial", it is very logical. Ancient R1a and R1b have been just diverted from their common ancestor, and they should look similar to each other. DYS392=13 is a part of that similarity.

The more time passes, the "younger" haplotypes, the more they are dissimilar. In other words, if some day we uncover R1a and R1b haplotypes, say, 16 thousand years of age, they would be much more similar to each other than the current ones.

Цитата(Igor1961 @ 24.6.2011, 10:37) *
Where they lived, it is still a mystery, but there are indirect indications that they would be the first speakers of Indo-European languages.


They apparently lived along a treck between South Siberia and Europe, spreading along Altai, Tibet, India, Iran, Asia Minor and the Balkans, and most of them had DYS392 = 13, with mutations 12 and 14. DYS393=12 folks vanished, they did not pass a population bottleneck. DYS392=11, a European stock, eventually prevailed, since moved to the Russian Plain and proliferated, and came back to Europe in their multitude. And, yes, indeed, all that R1a1 trail between Altain and Balkans spoke the Aryan (Proto"Indo-European") language in its natural dynamics.

That is how it looks right bow.


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a-Z283
mt-DNA: H

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