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> Confused And Could Use Some Help!, What does this mean?
ThatConfusedR1aG...
сообщение 18.12.2011, 10:17
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Hey everyone!

I was hoping somebody could help shed some light on what cluster my R1a matches with.

To give some background, My direct paternal family can be traced back to the early 1500's to Oakwell Hall, York, England. The direct paper trail I have ends there, but there also appears to be connection with the Yorkshire Batt family with the Wiltshire (in southern England) Batt family (Robert Batt owned Oakwell hall during the 16th century, but lived in Wiltshire with the Batt family there, leading me to believe they are related). This makes me doubt my Yorkshire Batt family's origins in York, and possibly having roots somewhere else in England, possibly the south. From my understanding, the vast majority of Bat/Batt/Batte families England are located found in the south.

My Y-search ID (PW3B5) Seems to match heavily with Slavic R1a, but I am not able to explain how that would lead to my family having roots in England. That's what brings me here. I am not sure how to compare my Y-DNA results to any of the R1a subcluster groups that you all seem to be working on. I was hoping that it might be possible for somebody to take a quick look at my YDNA makers and give me a rough guess of what R1a group I most likely fit in with, and how that might correlate with my paper trail in England.

Thanks for your time to read this,
ThatConfusedR1aGuy
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Igor1961
сообщение 18.12.2011, 20:37
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Цитата(ThatConfusedR1aGuy @ 18.12.2011, 16:17) *
Hey everyone!

I was hoping somebody could help shed some light on what cluster my R1a matches with.

To give some background, My direct paternal family can be traced back to the early 1500's to Oakwell Hall, York, England. The direct paper trail I have ends there, but there also appears to be connection with the Yorkshire Batt family with the Wiltshire (in southern England) Batt family (Robert Batt owned Oakwell hall during the 16th century, but lived in Wiltshire with the Batt family there, leading me to believe they are related). This makes me doubt my Yorkshire Batt family's origins in York, and possibly having roots somewhere else in England, possibly the south. From my understanding, the vast majority of Bat/Batt/Batte families England are located found in the south.

My Y-search ID (PW3B5) Seems to match heavily with Slavic R1a, but I am not able to explain how that would lead to my family having roots in England. That's what brings me here. I am not sure how to compare my Y-DNA results to any of the R1a subcluster groups that you all seem to be working on. I was hoping that it might be possible for somebody to take a quick look at my YDNA makers and give me a rough guess of what R1a group I most likely fit in with, and how that might correlate with my paper trail in England.

Thanks for your time to read this,
ThatConfusedR1aGuy

Hi, I understand you confusion while seeing very little relation to typical English lineages. Although your haplotype doesn't contain enough markers to be sure in its assignment, but it is very likely to belong to the Central European branch of R1a1a1g subclade. This lineage is one of the most numerous ones in continental Europe, representing mostly Slavs, as well as measurable fractions of Germans, Hungarians and Greeks. You can make sense of its distribution from this map.

As you can see, you are not the only Briton on this map, there are a few more. It is difficult to tell about origin of these peoples without knowledge of documentary pedigrees. Since your succeeded it finding ancestors down to early 1500's, it is reasonable to consider possible migration pathways from the Continent to Isles prior to this time. It is unlikely to be related to Norse and Danish settlers in Northumberland and East Anglia, because it was dominated by bearers of Z284 subclade (Scandinavian branches). I would consider a version with merchants and/or sailors from Northern Germany (Hanseatic League), some of them lived permanently in London and some other cities. In fact, many of them were descendants of germanized Polabian Slavs who inhabited Lower Saxony, Mecklenburd and Pomerania in the early Middle Ages. They still live in those areas, as you can see from the map.


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a M458>Y2604>CTS11962>L1029>FGC66323>YP1703>YP6189>BY35612
mt-DNA: U3a2a (16343G, 16390A, 16519C, 73G, 150T, 200G, 263G, 315.1C)
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ThatConfusedR1aG...
сообщение 19.12.2011, 6:19
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Цитата(Igor1961 @ 18.12.2011, 9:37) *
Hi, I understand you confusion while seeing very little relation to typical English lineages. Although your haplotype doesn't contain enough markers to be sure in its assignment, but it is very likely to belong to the Central European branch of R1a1a1g subclade. This lineage is one of the most numerous ones in continental Europe, representing mostly Slavs, as well as measurable fractions of Germans, Hungarians and Greeks. You can make sense of its distribution from this map.

As you can see, you are not the only Briton on this map, there are a few more. It is difficult to tell about origin of these peoples without knowledge of documentary pedigrees. Since your succeeded it finding ancestors down to early 1500's, it is reasonable to consider possible migration pathways from the Continent to Isles prior to this time. It is unlikely to be related to Norse and Danish settlers in Northumberland and East Anglia, because it was dominated by bearers of Z284 subclade (Scandinavian branches). I would consider a version with merchants and/or sailors from Northern Germany (Hanseatic League), some of them lived permanently in London and some other cities. In fact, many of them were descendants of germanized Polabian Slavs who inhabited Lower Saxony, Mecklenburd and Pomerania in the early Middle Ages. They still live in those areas, as you can see from the map.



Thanks for the reply friend!

I just found this document on the internet about the early Bat family of London (Early 11th c.): http://www.simplysorcery.pwp.blueyonder.co...ry/battlond.pdf

To summarize the first pages I have read so far, that the early Bat family of London can be first found after the Norman invasion of England. It also says that it is unknown how the Bat family acquired it's wealth, but that it had established itself as a very wealthy family by the end of the 1100's, and that a street by the name "Germaynes Lane"a (named after German le Cordier or the Cologne Merchants ) was changed to Batteslane.

From the wiki link you gave me, this line can be found
"For example, the merchants of the Cologne Hansa convinced Henry II, King of England to free them (1157) from all tolls in London"

Now, that might be a wild coincidence, but that sounds very interesting to me. Do I sound crazy to make a connection here? My DNA would seem to match well with it... don't you think?
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Igor1961
сообщение 19.12.2011, 7:34
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Цитата(ThatConfusedR1aGuy @ 19.12.2011, 12:19) *
I just found this document on the internet about the early Bat family of London (Early 11th c.): http://www.simplysorcery.pwp.blueyonder.co...ry/battlond.pdf

To summarize the first pages I have read so far, that the early Bat family of London can be first found after the Norman invasion of England. It also says that it is unknown how the Bat family acquired it's wealth, but that it had established itself as a very wealthy family by the end of the 1100's, and that a street by the name "Germaynes Lane"a (named after German le Cordier or the Cologne Merchants ) was changed to Batteslane.

From the wiki link you gave me, this line can be found
"For example, the merchants of the Cologne Hansa convinced Henry II, King of England to free them (1157) from all tolls in London"

Now, that might be a wild coincidence, but that sounds very interesting to me. Do I sound crazy to make a connection here? My DNA would seem to match well with it... don't you think?

That's very exciting to find such connections! As I know, a major part of English surnames of non-English etymology was first recorded after the Norman Invasion. But not all their bearers have been actual Normans or military men. There was a flow of merchants and craftsmen from Continent, as well. Your version looks reasonable, but still lacking the firm support.

The best way would be to collect DNA samples from people of presumably the same origin as yours, and check whether they belong to the same DNA lineage. If yes, one can estimate time when its ancestor lived. However, this is very difficult task, because people moved back and forth, changed their social status and surnames. Even if you find a good paper track to someone, this person can refuse to be analyzed. To make things worse, there is a probablity that your direct paternal line became extinct, except for the closest relatives. However, there are many of success stories. If you are interested in, I would recommend to start from upgrading your haplotype to 67 or 111-marker format. It helps to position it on the tree and to find possible matches on more solid basis. It would be desirable to check by SNP M458, which marks this particular branch. If you decide to upgrade to 67 markers, it is not necessary. In fact, we both belong to the same "big family" called Central European branch, but my g-g-g-...-g-grandfather preferred to move to the eastern direction, residing finally in Ukraine.


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a M458>Y2604>CTS11962>L1029>FGC66323>YP1703>YP6189>BY35612
mt-DNA: U3a2a (16343G, 16390A, 16519C, 73G, 150T, 200G, 263G, 315.1C)
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ThatConfusedR1aG...
сообщение 19.12.2011, 7:59
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Цитата(Igor1961 @ 18.12.2011, 20:34) *
That's very exciting to find such connections! As I know, a major part of English surnames of non-English etymology was first recorded after the Norman Invasion. But not all their bearers have been actual Normans or military men. There was a flow of merchants and craftsmen from Continent, as well. Your version looks reasonable, but still lacking the firm support.

The best way would be to collect DNA samples from people of presumably the same origin as yours, and check whether they belong to the same DNA lineage. If yes, one can estimate time when its ancestor lived. However, this is very difficult task, because people moved back and forth, changed their social status and surnames. Even if you find a good paper track to someone, this person can refuse to be analyzed. To make things worse, there is a probablity that your direct paternal line became extinct, except for the closest relatives. However, there are many of success stories. If you are interested in, I would recommend to start from upgrading your haplotype to 67 or 111-marker format. It helps to position it on the tree and to find possible matches on more solid basis. It would be desirable to check by SNP M458, which marks this particular branch. If you decide to upgrade to 67 markers, it is not necessary. In fact, we both belong to the same "big family" called Central European branch, but my g-g-g-...-g-grandfather preferred to move to the eastern direction, residing finally in Ukraine.


Well, my very distant cousin, your have really helped me!

I think you are right that I should consider upgrading my DNA set to a 111-marker format. It would allow for some great clarity for further research. Perhaps it will possibly even help others who are researching the Batt Family...

I'm also excited because I will be heading to Oakwell Hall (The Yorkshire Batt family ancestral home) in 2-3 weeks for a vacation in England... It will be fascinating to see what the staff there will know about this, if anything. This seems like a breakthrough for me.

Now out of curiosity, I would be interested in finding out a rough estimate of when the Central European R1a branch entered Germany. I need to research a lot more about this! It will be fun!
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ThatConfusedR1aG...
сообщение 16.8.2012, 21:29
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Цитата
В случае с ЦЕ ветвью R1a1 важно то, что версия № 3 дает основния предполагать, что 1300 лет назад ее носители жили на юге Германии, историческом центре империи Карла Великого. К какому народу они принадлежали (славянам, франкам, саксам и т.д.), мы не знаем, ветвь не оставила других потомков, кроме чудом сохранивших ее евреев. Будем надеяться, со временем потомки найдутся и среди других народов.


I guess what I was trying to ask in the other thread was if you believed that the Frankish people carried Central European R1a.

and if they did, would that possibly explain the R1a that found its way into the Hanseatic League, and then London?






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Igor1961
сообщение 17.8.2012, 14:57
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Цитата(ThatConfusedR1aGuy @ 17.8.2012, 3:29) *
I guess what I was trying to ask in the other thread was if you believed that the Frankish people carried Central European R1a.

and if they did, would that possibly explain the R1a that found its way into the Hanseatic League, and then London?

They could, why not? Just because Franks themselves were not a single people, but a rather loose confederation of tribes of various stock. Among them, descendants of Slavs and continental Celts would be the bearers of the Central European Branch of R1a. The unifying force for them was an adoption of the same common law rules and, later, conversion into Roman Catholicism, as opposed to Arianism in other German tribes.

But, anyway, I don't see any relation between this story and the Hanseatic League. It was located around Baltic See, and populated with many of germanized Slavs, whose descendants still live in Schleswig-Holstein, Lower Saxony and Mecklenburg provinces of Germany.


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a M458>Y2604>CTS11962>L1029>FGC66323>YP1703>YP6189>BY35612
mt-DNA: U3a2a (16343G, 16390A, 16519C, 73G, 150T, 200G, 263G, 315.1C)
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ThatConfusedR1aG...
сообщение 17.8.2012, 20:33
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Цитата(Igor1961 @ 17.8.2012, 3:57) *
They could, why not? Just because Franks themselves were not a single people, but a rather loose confederation of tribes of various stock. Among them, descendants of Slavs and continental Celts would be the bearers of the Central European Branch of R1a. The unifying force for them was an adoption of the same common law rules and, later, conversion into Roman Catholicism, as opposed to Arianism in other German tribes.

But, anyway, I don't see any relation between this story and the Hanseatic League. It was located around Baltic See, and populated with many of germanized Slavs, whose descendants still live in Schleswig-Holstein, Lower Saxony and Mecklenburg provinces of Germany.


I see. Thanks for the reply smile.gif


I asked about the Franks because the Bat family of London I mentioned earlier in this thread had secured it's position and wealth by the Late 1100's, which seems to just slightly predate the formation of the Hanseatic league.

And in that document I posted earlier, it said the street "Germaynes Lane"a (named after German le Cordier or the Cologne Merchants) was changed to Batteslane, after the Lord Mayor Gerrard Bat. He apparently owned a property on the street.

If that is the case, then it seems plausible that the Bat family of the time could have been related to the Cologne merchants. And according to the wiki, the Cologne merchants had a significant presence in London predating the Hanseatic League:

"For example, the merchants of the Cologne Hansa convinced Henry II, King of England to free them (1157) from all tolls in London"


So I was curious about the possibility of the Frankish people being bearers of the Central European Branch of R1a because that would seem to fit with the possibility that the Bat family of London came from Cologne, located in the homeland of the Franks (Austrasia), and explain their presence before the creation of the Hanseatic League.



As a side note, I ordered FTDNA's 111 marker test 3 days ago, so hopefully that will help give me some clarity.

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