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> About Z2123
Jarjar
сообщение 1.11.2013, 12:41
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Ignore, the Z2123 branch in south India(especially Kerala) is actually from Tamil Nadu. They settled in Kerala very recently and still speak Tamil at home. Hence at least based on recent history, I would not connect the z2123 in south India with Arabs. Moreover, most of them are Brahmins and

Anyway, Eswaran and Bhattar are from Tamil Nadu and they moved in recent history to Kerala and Karnataka respectively through brahmin migrations. Kamath is a Konkani brahmin originally from Goa. So it is not feasible to tie them with Arab merchants. If there is a connection with Arabs, it was from a much longer period.
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Igor1961
сообщение 1.11.2013, 21:28
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Цитата(Jarjar @ 1.11.2013, 18:41) *
If there is a connection with Arabs, it was from a much longer period.

True, just look at TMRCA of their branch (2600±290 ybp). This time is preceeding the settlement of Tamils in the present-day Tamil Nadu. Their ancestors lived somewhere in Central India. On expanding into southern direction, they have absorbed not only indigenoius people, but also migrants from Near East, who moved along ancient trade routes connecting Mesopotamia and India. Apparently, they occupied rather high social rank and joined higher castes upon assimilation.

In fact, the common ancestor of Bhattar, Kamath and Eswaran lived later than that of Arabians, namely 1700±400 years before present. Probably, he was rather Persian than Arabian, but we are aware only of Arabized descendants of this lineage because of the great activity of Persian Gulf Arabs in commercial DNA testing.


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a M458>Y2604>CTS11962>L1029>FGC66323>YP1703>YP6189>BY35612
mt-DNA: U3a2a (16343G, 16390A, 16519C, 73G, 150T, 200G, 263G, 315.1C)
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Амиго
сообщение 2.11.2013, 18:51
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Цитата(Jarjar @ 1.11.2013, 12:41) *
Ignore, the Z2123 branch in south India(especially Kerala) is actually from Tamil Nadu. They settled in Kerala very recently and still speak Tamil at home. Hence at least based on recent history, I would not connect the z2123 in south India with Arabs. Moreover, most of them are Brahmins and

Anyway, Eswaran and Bhattar are from Tamil Nadu and they moved in recent history to Kerala and Karnataka respectively through brahmin migrations. Kamath is a Konkani brahmin originally from Goa. So it is not feasible to tie them with Arab merchants. If there is a connection with Arabs, it was from a much longer period.


Hello!

I personally agree with you completely. Also think that part of the Indo-Aryan Z2123 present among the Indo-Aryans from the date of the coming of the Aryans in the 2nd millennium BC from the north to India. Moreover, we assume that the Buddha Siddharth was also from the clan Z2123, but this only version, because the Buddha was from Sakes clan (Old Persian Sakā; Sanskrit शाक Śāka; Greek Σάκαι; Latin Sacae; Old Chinese: *Sək). But We don't have the DNA of Buddha. His surname is Siddhārtha Gautama Shakyamuni, and his named - "The Sage of Saka clan".

Sincerely to you.


--------------------
Amigo

База данных У-ДНК Soraman http://suyun.info/index.php?LANG=ENG&p=b

Если что буду общаться на http://nations.unoforum.pro/

Наш сайт по этногеномике suyun.info

ЭИ Проект ''Suyun'' на сайте Томаса Кранна https://www.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=70

Если вы новичок и не знаете какая у вас ветка, и что вам дальше заказывать, то см. тут.

Matches * Матчи http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bashqo...ection=yresults
Nations * Народы http://www.familytreedna.com/public/suyun/...ection=yresults
Clans * Кланы и фамилии http://www.familytreedna.com/public/people...ection=yresults

The descendants of the ancient tribes * Потомки древних племён http://www.familytreedna.com/public/TuranS...ection=yresults

Среди цветов вишня, среди людей самураи...

--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a.Z2123. SUR250+, SUR22+
mt-DNA: H
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Jarjar
сообщение 4.11.2013, 17:16
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Igor

The Tamils have been in south india longer than 2500 years ago. Here is a written inscription by Jaina monks (or by villagers) http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-re...icle3220674.ece using Brahmi in the south (I think Jaina monks brought the script with them and that Tamil was transmitted orally before then). The Brahmins in Tamil Nadu constitute less than 1% of the population (http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?234783) and there are many different factions. The two Tamil Z2123 (Eswaran and Bhattar) I would belong to the Vadama clan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vadama) . Their origins are not that clear.


Bollo


There has always been the misconception regarding the word "Shakya".... "Shakya" is not the same as "Saka".

Shakya is a clan belonging to the Ikshvaku dynasty and the word Shakya means "Those who can achieve" in Sanskrit language.

Saka referes to the Saka tribes who were considered Barbarians (Mleccha: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mleccha ) by the Vedic people in India.
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Боромир
сообщение 4.11.2013, 21:38
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Jarjar do you have idea why you are labeled as the carrier of haplogroup G on this forum? You claimed yourself as having Brahmin ancestry in the first post. You are probably R1a. We have one L657 indian guy checked at Russsian Empire Project. Is it you? It is OK if you prefer to stay anonymous.


--------------------
FTDNA Kit No. 143121, Russian Empire Project
Ysearch/mitosearch URQ2X


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a-Z280 >CTS1211>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y2910>L458* Восточно-Карпатская (Волго-Карпатская ветвь)
mt-DNA: H* (16085T, 16189C, 16519C, 263G, 315.1C, 522-, 523-)
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Jarjar
сообщение 5.11.2013, 0:16
Сообщение #6


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Цитата(Боромир @ 4.11.2013, 14:38) *
Jarjar do you have idea why you are labeled as the carrier of haplogroup G on this forum? You claimed yourself as having Brahmin ancestry in the first post. You are probably R1a. We have one L657 indian guy checked at Russsian Empire Project. Is it you? It is OK if you prefer to stay anonymous.



Not all Brahmins aer R1a....

Brahhmins from the Gangetic plains (North India) are mostly R1a-L657, but also carry L1a, H1a and R2a1.

Brahmins from the south of India have many groups , Mostly R1a-Z2123, but also G-P303 (like me), H1a, L1a, R2a, J2b2 and also C5a. But there are some brahmins in south who also seem to carry R1a-L657.
But most brahmins in the south to date tested, appear to be R1a-Z2123.
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Амиго
сообщение 5.11.2013, 1:29
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Цитата(Jarjar @ 5.11.2013, 1:16) *
Brahmins from the south of India have many groups , Mostly R1a-Z2123, but also G-P303 (like me), H1a, L1a, R2a, J2b2 and also C5a. But there are some brahmins in south who also seem to carry R1a-L657.
But most brahmins in the south to date tested, appear to be R1a-Z2123.


Very interesting! The Brahmans also they have the cluster G2a3b which once again confirms the steppe origin of G2a3b. We tested cluster G2a3b1+L1264 - he has a very wide geography - from Ural and the Caucasus to Europe, and he is a descendant of G2a3b+P303. May be cluster G2a3b+P303 together with R1a+Z2123 and R1a+L657 participated in the Aryan invasion of India. What are your versions of the origin of Your clan - Brahman G2a3b? And still. You write that you are among the Brahmans are R1a+Z2123 - i.e. they are all purely Indo-Aryan R1a+Z2123? In Russia, in my opinion R1a+Z2123 mainly associated with Turanian tribes (Saka-Dinlings, Massagetaes-Alans, Wusuns).


--------------------
Amigo

База данных У-ДНК Soraman http://suyun.info/index.php?LANG=ENG&p=b

Если что буду общаться на http://nations.unoforum.pro/

Наш сайт по этногеномике suyun.info

ЭИ Проект ''Suyun'' на сайте Томаса Кранна https://www.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=70

Если вы новичок и не знаете какая у вас ветка, и что вам дальше заказывать, то см. тут.

Matches * Матчи http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bashqo...ection=yresults
Nations * Народы http://www.familytreedna.com/public/suyun/...ection=yresults
Clans * Кланы и фамилии http://www.familytreedna.com/public/people...ection=yresults

The descendants of the ancient tribes * Потомки древних племён http://www.familytreedna.com/public/TuranS...ection=yresults

Среди цветов вишня, среди людей самураи...

--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a.Z2123. SUR250+, SUR22+
mt-DNA: H
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Jarjar
сообщение 6.11.2013, 16:40
Сообщение #8


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Цитата(Болло @ 4.11.2013, 18:29) *
Цитата(Jarjar @ 5.11.2013, 1:16) *
Brahmins from the south of India have many groups , Mostly R1a-Z2123, but also G-P303 (like me), H1a, L1a, R2a, J2b2 and also C5a. But there are some brahmins in south who also seem to carry R1a-L657.
But most brahmins in the south to date tested, appear to be R1a-Z2123.


Very interesting! The Brahmans also they have the cluster G2a3b which once again confirms the steppe origin of G2a3b. We tested cluster G2a3b1+L1264 - he has a very wide geography - from Ural and the Caucasus to Europe, and he is a descendant of G2a3b+P303. May be cluster G2a3b+P303 together with R1a+Z2123 and R1a+L657 participated in the Aryan invasion of India. What are your versions of the origin of Your clan - Brahman G2a3b? And still. You write that you are among the Brahmans are R1a+Z2123 - i.e. they are all purely Indo-Aryan R1a+Z2123? In Russia, in my opinion R1a+Z2123 mainly associated with Turanian tribes (Saka-Dinlings, Massagetaes-Alans, Wusuns).


The word "Arya" has a very different meaning in India.

In Iran, "Arya" refers to a specific group of people belonging to a specific ethnicity.
In India, "Arya" means cultured, and specifically refers to those who uphold Vedic belief and philosophy. Anyone who was foreign to the culture (that is, people who were North of Kashmir, east of Bengal, west of Indus, and tribals within India who did not accept the Vedas) was considered "Mleccha" or Barbarian.
Hence during the history of India, different tribes (people) that entered at different times, were assigned to different castes.
So the current theory is that the "Brahmin" caste (like every other caste such as Kshatriya, Vaishya etc.) is arbitrarily assigned and does not all belong to a homogeneous group or tribe. Instead the people who identify as Brahmin today are of different origins.
So no one knows the origin of the different haplogroups in each caste. The only consensus is that the oldest inhabitants of India are the tribal groups (especially in central and south India), and so one can speculate that the haplogroups present in tribals were originally present in India.

Here is a table of STRs from south India tribal and caste groups : http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingle...ne.0050269.s005

The paper is here: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%...al.pone.0050269

If there is a 'G' STR expert here, maybethe could figure out which of these is G2a3b1 and which is not?
by the way, my FTDNA sample ID is N96726
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Амиго
сообщение 6.11.2013, 18:00
Сообщение #9


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Цитата(Jarjar @ 6.11.2013, 16:40) *
The word "Arya" has a very different meaning in India.

In Iran, "Arya" refers to a specific group of people belonging to a specific ethnicity.
In India, "Arya" means cultured, and specifically refers to those who uphold Vedic belief and philosophy. Anyone who was foreign to the culture (that is, people who were North of Kashmir, east of Bengal, west of Indus, and tribals within India who did not accept the Vedas) was considered "Mleccha" or Barbarian.
Hence during the history of India, different tribes (people) that entered at different times, were assigned to different castes.
So the current theory is that the "Brahmin" caste (like every other caste such as Kshatriya, Vaishya etc.) is arbitrarily assigned and does not all belong to a homogeneous group or tribe. Instead the people who identify as Brahmin today are of different origins.
So no one knows the origin of the different haplogroups in each caste. The only consensus is that the oldest inhabitants of India are the tribal groups (especially in central and south India), and so one can speculate that the haplogroups present in tribals were originally present in India.

Here is a table of STRs from south India tribal and caste groups : http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingle...ne.0050269.s005

The paper is here: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%...al.pone.0050269

If there is a 'G' STR expert here, maybethe could figure out which of these is G2a3b1 and which is not?
by the way, my FTDNA sample ID is N96726


Good day! You are absolutely right!

The term Arias (Aryan) have the three meanings:
1) Ethnic sense - Arias are descendants of the Indo-European,
2) Social sense - Arias are Kshatriyas and Brahmans and
3) the Moral, the highest sense - Arias - are noble people.

Do you have the opportunity to join our project? We are very interested in your clan G2a3b+P303. The more you are is Brahman, and your clan G2a3b - has steppe origin. Here is our project - join.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bashqo...ection=yresults

if you want to. And last. Now'm off on holiday and communicate in the forum I can not. So, you can forgive me in advance if I don't the time to answer Your questions, simply because I leave to rest. And discussing to the this forum - I can not.

With respect.

We will talk about it later, when i'll back from vacation.

Good-bye.


--------------------
Amigo

База данных У-ДНК Soraman http://suyun.info/index.php?LANG=ENG&p=b

Если что буду общаться на http://nations.unoforum.pro/

Наш сайт по этногеномике suyun.info

ЭИ Проект ''Suyun'' на сайте Томаса Кранна https://www.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=70

Если вы новичок и не знаете какая у вас ветка, и что вам дальше заказывать, то см. тут.

Matches * Матчи http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bashqo...ection=yresults
Nations * Народы http://www.familytreedna.com/public/suyun/...ection=yresults
Clans * Кланы и фамилии http://www.familytreedna.com/public/people...ection=yresults

The descendants of the ancient tribes * Потомки древних племён http://www.familytreedna.com/public/TuranS...ection=yresults

Среди цветов вишня, среди людей самураи...

--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a.Z2123. SUR250+, SUR22+
mt-DNA: H
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