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> R1a1 Forum In English, A communication tool for English-speaking participants
aklyosov
сообщение 15.8.2008, 5:22
Сообщение #1


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Dear R1a1 fellow,

Feel free to address your questions, suggestions, comments regarding DNA genealogy in general and R1a1 haplogroup in particular.

Do not hesitate. R1a1 family members will always find a thing or two to discuss. Such as Who Was Our Common Daddy and what was he doing (and where)?


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a-Z283
mt-DNA: H

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Павел Шварев
сообщение 16.8.2008, 12:52
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Цитата
Good morning Pavel,
Thanks for your e-mail. This is a pleasant surprise!
I have ordered an upgrade to 37 markers, and the results should be posted on
20 August (next week). Sometime later (if I can save up some money!), I will
be 'upgrading' to 67 markers.
I look forward to corresponding with you in future, and I think we will have
lots of stories to tell each other.
I am an Afrikaner - of Dutch, German and French ancestry (for the last 350
years) - and I live in Pretoria. I am trying to find the real roots of the
South African Venters, and I have written a few articles for periodicals in
this regard. (I might even consider writing a book, with the added
information you might be able to give!).
There are five SA Venters who have been classified as R1a1, and our Y-DNA
'numbers' are exactly the same up to 12, 25, and 31 markers, according to
the number of markers tested in respect of individual participants. Two of
us (Johann Venter of Witrivier, and Cobus Venter, now living in the USA),
have had 67 markers tested, and Wilhelm, now living in Toronto, had 37
markers tested. (At present I have had 25 markers tested, but I will soon be
'joining' him at 37!).
We SA Venters are all descended from Hendrik Venter, born in 1663, in
Hamelin (?) Germany, or Hamel (?) France. He came to the Cape of Good Hope,
South Africa, in ±1687.
We have 'genetic cousins' in John Wroble(wski) of Chicago, Alex Holodiloff,
and Clement Brandt, also of the USA. Yes, and then there are about 135 more
matches on the database of FTDNA - most of them being men who live in your
part of the world, or whose ancestors came from there.
A little story: My father (now deceased) told me that our ancestors came
from Poland and Russia. I was still at school when he told me this, and I
didn't think of asking him where he got that information from. Most SA
Venters think that our family originally came from the Dutch city of
Deventer, and/or that they were Lower Germans ('Niederdeutschen'). Venter is
believed (by most people) to be a German surname.
That's about enough to get us started! I look forward to hearing from you
soon - we must keep in touch.
Regards,
Piet Venter
Tel.
e-mail: pr.venter@lantic.net or pr.venter@absamail.co.za

Цитата
Dear Pavel,
Please describe to me further your R1a1 project. The approximate number of 67 marker haplotypes which you already have. The number of distinct haplotype branchings you have already determined. Is each distinct haplotype, even to a single marker difference from any other? Do you give the surname or many surnames that are that haplotype? Are geographical locations down to a statement of the country included with each distinct haplotype?

As you know, there is a great expense for the 67 marker test, I may be willing to participate but wish to know such details first. Also if you have such available, I would like to see a sample of how your tree appears sent as an attachment to your reply please. Your link to the .jpg image does not function. Also are you a private project, or do you have an association with a particular Government entity, a University, a religious organization, a particular descendents family lineage organization, etc ?

Thank You, Sincerely, ysearch identity EA7B2

Цитата
Your link to the .jpg image does not function.

http://ar1a.ru/img/r1atreebig.jpg
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Павел Шварев
сообщение 17.8.2008, 16:06
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Цитата
Dear Pavel,
Thank you for writing. I would very much like to participate in your
R1a1 project. I have already ordered the 67 marker test, however I was
advised they were unable to get a useable reading on their first
attempt. Possible results by September 12.
My name is Everell Cummins, b. WA, USA, 1927, now living in San
Rafael CA, north of San Francisco. My male line ancestry seems to be
Scotland, but cannot verify that. I am aware that R1a ancestry is rare
in Great Britain and is more plentiful in Scandinavia Poland and
Germany.
I would appreciate any nformation you can furnish. Thank you again
for contacting me.
Sincerely,
Everell Cummins

Цитата
It is nice to finally have contact with a Russian who shares my Kurgan DNA. Unlike most Kurgans who headed east when their culture broke up, mine went northeast into Scandinavia and joined the Viking culture. They eventually went into Normandy and invaded England with William the Conqueror. The first named Spencer that I have been able to find was my seventh great grandfather Thomas Spencer in the 1690's. It is nice to meet a Russian cousin.
Tom Spencer
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Павел Шварев
сообщение 18.8.2008, 9:45
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Цитата
Also are you a private project, or do you have an association with a particular Government entity, a University, a religious organization, a particular descendents family lineage organization, etc ?

The R1a1 Project is a private project, conducted by a group of volunteers. Nobody of them is associated with any particular Government entity or a religious organization.
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Arianveij
сообщение 22.8.2008, 2:41
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Цитата(Читуай @ 17.8.2008, 23:45) *
The R1a1 Project is a private project, conducted by a group of volunteers. Nobody of them is associated with any particular Government entity or a religious organization.

Hi, I have invited on behalf of you our English-speaking felows, is it OK?
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Paul_Johnsen
сообщение 2.9.2008, 20:43
Сообщение #6


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Hi,

I am interested to learn more about this project. Do you have any information in English? I have seen the network diagrams (and they look very good).

I am wondering: How did you arrive at the ancestral state of R1a1?


Best regards

Paul Johnsen

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_Alesh_*
сообщение 16.7.2009, 6:23
Сообщение #7





Гости






Hi friends,

I was just wondering if it is possible to be attached to the Russian gene tree?
Are you planning to build a different branch for other nations or differently?
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aklyosov
сообщение 16.7.2009, 12:31
Сообщение #8


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>I am wondering: How did you arrive at the ancestral state of R1a1?

Sorry Paul, missed your message in due time. If by chance you wonder here again, it would be good for you to clarify what do you mean by "the ancestral state" in this particular case. An ancestral haplotype? A "base" haplotype, that is that the "oldest" one we were able to identify, and which belonged to an "intermediate common ancestor", descendants of whom managed to pass a bottleneck and survived until now?

As you apparently well know, DNA genealogy deals with not "absolute" common ancestors of any given population, but with those who left a survived (until now) lineage which was tested for haplotypes and haplogroups.


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a-Z283
mt-DNA: H

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Paul_Johnsen
сообщение 24.8.2009, 21:48
Сообщение #9


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Цитата(aklyosov @ 16.7.2009, 12:31) *
>I am wondering: How did you arrive at the ancestral state of R1a1?

Sorry Paul, missed your message in due time. If by chance you wonder here again, it would be good for you to clarify what do you mean by "the ancestral state" in this particular case. An ancestral haplotype? A "base" haplotype, that is that the "oldest" one we were able to identify, and which belonged to an "intermediate common ancestor", descendants of whom managed to pass a bottleneck and survived until now?

As you apparently well know, DNA genealogy deals with not "absolute" common ancestors of any given population, but with those who left a survived (until now) lineage which was tested for haplotypes and haplogroups.

I was thinking of the ancestral state of R1a. In particular about DYS 392. I believe the ancestral state of DYS 392 is 13 for R1a, seeing that L62* haplotypes have 13 and also this is common for R1b. So even if DYS 392 = 11 makes up almost all of R1a1a today, in some sense DYS 392 = 13 could be more interesting.
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Igor1961
сообщение 25.8.2009, 3:29
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Цитата(Paul_Johnsen @ 3.9.2008, 2:43) *
Hi,

I am interested to learn more about this project. Do you have any information in English? I have seen the network diagrams (and they look very good).

I am wondering: How did you arrive at the ancestral state of R1a1?


Best regards

Paul Johnsen


Hi, Paul,

Your can learn about one more project of this site, dealing with geography of various branches of R1a1. For example, you can find yourself on this map. Your closest cousins (common ancestor of about 1000 years ago) are marked by the same pin's color (green).

Best regards.
Igor.


--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a M458>Y2604>CTS11962>L1029>FGC66323>YP1703>YP6189>BY35612
mt-DNA: U3a2a (16343G, 16390A, 16519C, 73G, 150T, 200G, 263G, 315.1C)
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aklyosov
сообщение 25.8.2009, 4:19
Сообщение #11


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I was thinking of the ancestral state of R1a. In particular about DYS 392. I believe the ancestral state of DYS 392 is 13 for R1a, seeing that L62* haplotypes have 13 and also this is common for R1b. So even if DYS 392 = 11 makes up almost all of R1a1a today, in some sense DYS 392 = 13 could be more interesting.

It seems that you are right, Paul. The most "ancient" haplotypes, that is those which are similar to the ancestral one, have DYS392=13 or 14. It is not only because DYS392 in R1b1 are "13" (however, who told that the have not changed for the past 16,000 years?), but because the most "archaic" R1a1 haplotypes have DYS392= 13 or 14.

But why they could be more interesting? For whom? We can extract plenty of very important information from haplotypes which are derived from ancestors of, say, 5000 years bp. It is less interesting?



--------------------
Y-DNA: R1a-Z283
mt-DNA: H

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Paul_Johnsen
сообщение 25.8.2009, 17:49
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Цитата(Igor1961 @ 25.8.2009, 3:29) *
Hi, Paul,

Your can learn about one more project of this site, dealing with geography of various branches of R1a1. For example, you can find yourself on this map. Your closest cousins (common ancestor of about 1000 years ago) are marked by the same pin's color (green).

Best regards.
Igor.


Igor,

Thank you! These maps are great. Very nice work! The results seem very similar to what I have. I have some subdivisions that you don't have (or rather that doesn't show on your maps).

There are a few difference though; I consider only the combination DYS 391 = 11, DYS 594 = 11 and DYS 565 = 12 to be markers for what you call the V-group. If a haplotype does not have any of these values (or only DYS 391 = 11); I would consider it to be just a random convergence. So far no haplotype in Asia that I am aware of have had DYS 594 = 11 and DYS 565 = 12.
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Paul_Johnsen
сообщение 25.8.2009, 17:50
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Цитата(aklyosov @ 25.8.2009, 4:19) *
I was thinking of the ancestral state of R1a. In particular about DYS 392. I believe the ancestral state of DYS 392 is 13 for R1a, seeing that L62* haplotypes have 13 and also this is common for R1b. So even if DYS 392 = 11 makes up almost all of R1a1a today, in some sense DYS 392 = 13 could be more interesting.

It seems that you are right, Paul. The most "ancient" haplotypes, that is those which are similar to the ancestral one, have DYS392=13 or 14. It is not only because DYS392 in R1b1 are "13" (however, who told that the have not changed for the past 16,000 years?), but because the most "archaic" R1a1 haplotypes have DYS392= 13 or 14.

But why they could be more interesting? For whom? We can extract plenty of very important information from haplotypes which are derived from ancestors of, say, 5000 years bp. It is less interesting?


It would be more interesting in terms of understanding the origins of R1a1a. So far we know that L62* has been found in Europe, and we know that R1a1a with DYS 392 = 13 and DYS 385a > 11 has been found in Europe. Judging from the Sengupta-paper,these types can't be very common in India, and my be none-existent there. This suggests that R1a1a could have been found more towards Western Eurasia rather than Eastern Eurasia, which has been suggested. It also calls into question many of the alleged R1a1* (SRY10831.2 but M17-) haplotypes found in various papers. The ones I've seen have always been DYS 392 = 11. I have always wondered why so many scientific papers have managed to find so many R1a1* (M17-), when to my knowledge FTDNA has yet to find any.
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